Advertisement:

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 |   Go Down

Author Topic: Share your experiences  (Read 10044 times)

Eemo

  • Guest
Share your experiences
« on: Feb. 13, 2009, 11:37 PM »

I'm really looking to hear from the sisters on this one.
Other than the obvious deal-breakers, such as a guy wanting to 'have fun' or not being god-conscious and so on, what are some deal breakers for you?

What attracts you to a guy? What puts you off? what are you able to work with? what do you abhorr?

What are some personal experiences, or stories you can share....

Brothers, feel free to chime in, if your imparting some words that have been uttered to you from sisters

Eemo.
Logged

jannah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #1 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 09:27 AM »

An interesting thing happened this weekend. We were at a party with about 15 girls of all ages...ranging from 17 to 30+ and somehow this topic came up in a teasing way but then we ended up going around one by one saying what we found attractive in a guy! (yes i know weeird) So anyway every girl had a different answer, like one said she likes guys that are kind of scruffy, very open, one said she likes guys with a temper meaning he feels passionate about everything and shows it, another said she likes guys who have their own interests and wouldn't be in the same field as her and they would live mostly independent lives but be able to learn from each other, another said she likes guys with perfect above the ear haircuts, u know that line above the ear (no joke) she said that's the first thing she looks at! Another said she likes long tapered fingers. One said she likes really charming guys, another said she likes quiet guys. It was just extremely illuminating. Every girl had a different idea of what she found attractive and by extension perhaps even how she thought the perfect marriage/partner would be.

So now I think the answer to your question would be different from every girl, but there definitely were some qualities that I think we all agreed upon like honesty, respect, support and treating women well.
Logged

Muslimah21

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #2 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 02:11 PM »

well being at university in a mixed environment, i always check if that person hangs out with the girls. i dont need to do any investigating as if he does he will not hide it, as iv seen anyway.
obviously religion attracts me first and that means he is proper practcing, already carried out the pilllars of islam and does extra :D
so number one.. no "girl" friends. many brothers walk around in big groups of men and women and are very close which is a total no no for me. im at university and i never mix with men outside of the lecture rooms, for work yes but once uni is done we go our seperate ways. so there is no excuse for a brother to be walkign and chattign to a girl out of uni. looks dodgy :S
What he does in his spare time is important to me aswell, does he jsut go and play football? or does he go to islamic meetings, goes to mosque whenever he has the chance to, spends time with his family but is still independent.
obviously i would need to be physically attracted to him too.


yeah i had a few incidents last year, i was walkign hoem from university, and this dude said salaam, so i said it back. and he said can i ask you something, i said ok. and he started asking me personal questions... i later found out he was moroccan and he some how knew i was. alarm bells were ringing in my head... and when he attempted to shake my hand. i snapped at him. i said its bad enough you are talking to me, but dont you know its haram to touch me? i could tell i put him back in his place and i walked off. he seemed soo cocky and obviously the way he came across gave the impression he did this on a daily basis to girls in hijab. makes me sick!!!!
last summer i was walking to university, and a car pulled up by me, the dude started speaking lebanese arabic which i dont understand, and i said to him sorry i dotn speak lebanese, he then told me in english.... his exact words "i saw you yesterday walkign home, and you look liek a good girl, can i have your number so we can be friends" i was outraged and got soooo angry i shouted at him and made a big scene and told him, i dont think you should even be tlaking to me now lt aloen asking for my number? if you are a muslim man then why havnt you lowered your gaze and why did you even stop to talk to me. as i walked off all i could hear was him shouting to me, "please i just want to get to know you, give me a chance" i just wanted to slap him!!! uuurghhh.

incase men dotn realise, i dont like men who chat up girls, i dont like men who talk to me as if they would to a non muslim. and i dont like men asking for my personal details. :@


iv had some brothers be really honest to me about their not soo halal pasts, and i do appreciate that they respect me enough to tell em what they have done. but i wouldnt consider marrying a man who had a sinful past, especially when it comes to women and alcohol.

Logged

Eemo

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #3 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 03:26 PM »

OK interesting answers.

Would you mind elaborating a little on how you gauge someones honesty, the level of respect they provide, treating you well?

What are your expectations of how that should actually translate into the real world when there is interaction?

What about attraction. Aside from physical qualities, what ELSE is attractive to you?
I know lots and LOTS of guys who are honest and respectful, but the sisters are never attracted to them. There's always that missing chemistry, or not enough attraction if we are to be plain about it.

So what is that extra thing that really intrigues you about the guy?

Logged

Ponderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #4 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 06:14 PM »

As Jannah said everyone has different personal preferences. I, for example, like guys who are decent and educated. Guys who have good manners and think about things including the purpose of their existence in this life. I would never go for a guy who was just good looking but had no 'substance' to his personality. There must also be a religious dimension to him. I wouldn't mind if he had girls as friends as long as there was no physical contact (hugging etc.). The ability to hold a conversation would also be good. The difficulty comes when you find someone intriguiging and agreeable in their personality but not good looking or attractive in your eyes. Then I probably wouldn't know what to do!
Logged

jannah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #5 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 09:53 PM »

Honestly all sisters are looking for are a decent guy.

Now there's definitely a percentage that are those that have specific requirements like 'someone from their village', 'a doctor', 'someone with a 6 figure income', 'someone very good looking', 'my parents have to choose him' etc.

But the rest of the normal crowd are just looking for a guy that is decent...and what they mean by that is that they are a good muslim ie does the 5 pillars, goes to the mosque somewhat...they don't really have to have more than that but they can't drink or have gfs or do anything else grossly unislamic, and oddly enough girls actually don't like overly religious guys because it scares them. They need to have a job that has enough income to support them and a family. Girls always think ahead and don't want someone that wouldn't be able to support them or are unstable. They need to have some type of personality...like have friends or hobbies or interests that aren't too out there or extreme in it. By someone who treats them well that means that he is sensitive to her needs and supportive of her goals and dreams and things that are close to her ie her family. By honesty it means someone who doesn't lie and is sincere in their interests.

If a guy has all those things and she's not interested there's got to be more going on and there might be something that's turning her off, it can also be immaturity or high expectations when she's young or waiting around for that "perfect guy".

Now gross turn offs:

- someone ridiculously possessive or jealous
- someone with a temper
- someone who lies
- someone who drinks
- someone who has gfs
- someone who goes to clubs
- someone who smokes
- someone extreme in their islam (ie doesn't want their wife to go out/has to wear niqab)
- someone unhygienic (try to get a nice haircut wear clean clothes)
- someone who has no job or completely unambitious
- someone who takes no interest/dislikes ur family
- someone who doesn't treat his mother/sisters well
- someone who takes no interest in ur life goals/wishes/plans
- someone a lot shorter (sorry shorter guys)
- someone a lot skinnier (what girl wants to be fat around her husband)
- someone mean/too honest (girls are sensitive, learn to guard what u say)
- someone immature/too idealistic/not realistic

 
Logged

Muslimah21

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #6 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 11:07 PM »

ummm yeah i suppose some one could be very attractice but there isnt that spark. so i suppose you cant really define it becuase you wont know it until it happens.
yeah i totally agree with jannah.

i have always said that if i liked someone, then i would let my brothers hang out with them and do research for me, see how they interact with thier mates, what their mates ahev to say about him, how he treats his parents. so obviously this will taek time over a a period of time a few years perhaps but its needed especially when you dont know him or his family, and you need to start from the very begning. we dont live in a msulim world where people are honest so sometimes these extra measures i requierd even people to spy on them. lol i knwo people who have done it. anyways its always better if you got brothers or brother inlaw to go and investigate hang out with him, see what he does with his days. after a period of time he will begin to loosing up and be himself and thats when you can see if that person is who they say they are.
i mean my bro did it with me, when he liked a girl he sorted encouraged me to hang out with her and her folks which i did, and see how she lived how she interacts with her family and friends. and it worked well. so i think its a good way to do things.




nah i cant say im one of those people who say i want a doctor or lawyer etc etc. i used to but now having learnt more about islam and about myself i dont htink that way anymore.   i know my parents dont think that way, they coem from a poor background a humble one so if a guy approached them and he didnt aheva fancy job they wouldnt care, they would only care about wheather he would be able to look after me, and treat me well.
and to be honest i dont know any muslim doctors who are proper practicing muslims. i work at hospital and when i meet or come across them they are always chatting up the nurses and flirting, i never see them at prayer rooms when i go to pray duhr or asr. so i wouldnt go near a doctor or surgeon. most of them have been asian or middle eastern. and because they have been single for soo long becuase they ahve been studying it wouldnt be a shock to hear that they are not angels. :S

anyway hard workign guy, who is nto conssumed by money and flashy cars and big houses. just honest down to earth humble man.
like i said i wouldnt even give the dude a chance to say salaam if i knew he was friendly with girls. deffo' nonooo! lol
just playing with fire then
i agree with all jannahs points that exactly what i think. they are gross and typical of many muslim men.
typical scenario bright, good knowladge of islam, but is a complete slob and is not hygenic ewwww
or well dresses and groomed, (short beard kept neat) but lacks knowladge of islam.
it seems we cant find a brother with both charactersitics. :S oooh nooooooo lol
Logged

Eemo

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #7 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 11:45 PM »

OK few points in there i want to enquire further about if you dont mind....

This is to all or any of you.

1. What if he doesnt like the idea of having friends of the opposite gender? Maybe he has some online, but no contact whatsoever offline?
2. What if he doesnt have a stable income, but is immensely ambitious and has the courage to chase his dreams and to help his wife chase hers? (and is working on the income element)
3. What if he doesnt get on with his sisters, cos there is a disconnect islamically?
4. What kind of things define substance in the personality (to you) ?

How do you feel about all these things?

Jazakallah for answering by the way. Im learning loads :)
Logged

Eemo

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #8 on: Feb. 14, 2009, 11:48 PM »

Also, you've kind of listed generic traits about the guy, in terms of his core values, but what actually makes the guy interesting or exciting for you?

Eg. Good sense of humour? Charm? Etc etc
Logged

Eemo

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #9 on: Feb. 15, 2009, 12:52 AM »

And what about Hijab also?
In my own experience, sisters run a mile when i mention this.
Do you consider that the Wife should be wearing hijab, or you think it should be a choice.....or.......?
Logged

Muslimah21

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #10 on: Feb. 15, 2009, 02:21 PM »

1) id prefer if he didnt have any girl friends, actually it is a must for me, both online in virtual world and in real life. that is an important aspect for me. if he has female friends i wont be interested in him one bit, i dotn want to be with a womaniser, becuase lets face it thats what they are. there is no need to have female firends, you got male friends khalas. i dotn have boy friends, or male contacts online so neitehr should he.

2) um it depends what his dream is? is it a selfish dream where its all about him "i want i want i want" or is the dream he is chasing all about getting a job were he can provide for his wife and kids, and also allowing her to be a stay at home mother once they have kids. thats hard to find, a guy who doesnt mond if his wife stays at home or goes part time once she has kids to make sure they are raised correctly. its not all about money. i mean im at university and i wouldnt mind getting married now, i knwo i dont have an income as such, but it wont be liek that for much longer only 18 months and ill be earning. but then again i dont want a big fancy wedding so i dont need the money. i do have enough to have a simple islamic wedding which is what i want anyway.

3) what is blood sisters?   um id be curiosu to know why.. becuase his relationship with the female members of his family is important especially with his mother, even if she is mean to him he should still be respectful and never raise his voice to her. thats a key issue for me. if he treats his mother with up most respect i wont have to worry how he is with me.


4)um i think he doesnt need to be liek me, its nice to have someone who has opposite interests, but someone who is deffo' funny can make me laugh. becuase when i am down laughter always works my brother makes me laugh and i feel better. someone who is quiet shy when he is out, but at home is relaxed and more open. but how he acts with people, is he cocky, arragont, always needs to be heard and the centre of attention ( another nono) lol

exciting and interesting? umm charm? no i don't want to marry someone who is a player/casanova lol and knows all the cheesey chat up lines and cliche statments to say to a women (makes my skin crawl) romantic yes! good sense of humour but knows when its a time to laugh and when its a time to be serious. gentleman, respectful to women no matter what they look like weather muslim or not. so he doesnt name call women who are not muslim or who commit sin, he still has respect. i don't like men who swear nooooo swearing its rude and not nice for a muslim to swear. someone who knows how to lower his gaze, not a starer... i see that sort of man alot, its gross!
I suppose someone who has a face you know, that stands out from everyone else (hard to explain) but when you see them, you feel inner peace and you actually feel your heart smile (soppy i know)
um someone who likes to travel and meet different people, a bit of an explorer like myself, is into traditional way of life, likes to visit non touristy places and likes to try new things. see the good in people, and calm person but can be passionate about things he feels strong about like islam and me! hehehe :D
someone i know who i can write poetry and they will appreciate it, and appreciate my art and actually take an interest in it. someone who when they come home from work leave thier problems at work and comes home as a new person (hard to do but is possible)  ummmm...

Hijab? why would you marry a sister who didnt wear hijab? and most cases the brother is attracted to the sister because of her looks. which is a typical thing a muslim man would do. marry a sister without hijab so you can see what you are getting and then after marriage make her wear it. marry a girl who already perform hijab! duuuh lol
i wouldnt marry a man who would even consider marrying a girl without hijab, id tell him to take a hike! lol
well a brother is meant to be pickign this women for her deen? correct? well hijab is fard no two ways about it, so she should be wearing it and that is soemthing apart of the deen so if a brother marries a sis for her deen then its expect she should be wearing it already. otherwise he is marrying her for other reasons such as looks, (she is fit perhaps) :S


Hijab is fard no argument, and is part of our deen. so sisters if you dotn wear it you are lacking in your deen. im not saying they are bad people but it is not a good sign really.


hope that answered your questions eeeemooo :D


jazakallah khier
Logged

jannah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #11 on: Feb. 15, 2009, 09:27 PM »

Would love to hear from more sisters or even brothers... Where are you guys!!! Please join in!

Quote
1. What if he doesnt like the idea of having friends of the opposite gender? Maybe he has some online, but no contact whatsoever offline?
Most sisters would prefer this and I'm sure the brothers prefer that their wife doesn't have "friends of the opposite sex" either, but it really depends what you mean by "friends". Like sis/bros in the community that you talk to or work with or do they not like you to have any type of even saying salam to anyone.

What I meant by not having friends is that the guy has no male friends, doesn't hang out with other guys. I really think friends temper your thoughts and make you more "normal". They can tell you when you're being stupid or give you better perspectives and can give a guy advice. But a guy who has no friends... I'll wonder about why he doesn't have any friends and it might be because he was wack ideas and doesn't want to listen to anyone else. And also that he's anti-social or weird.


Quote
2. What if he doesnt have a stable income, but is immensely ambitious and has the courage to chase his dreams and to help his wife chase hers? (and is working on the income element)

I'll tell you quite honestly what a girl thinks (and it's not just me!) They think ok he has no stable income what's going to happen when I get pregnant and we can't afford any groceries? Am I going to have to work throughout my pregnancy, am I going to have to ask my parents for money or borrow money or is money going to be this huge issue once we get married.

Whenever a guy talks like that it just seems really immature to me. I mean why do you want to get married when you can't afford to support a family? Do you want your family to live in poverty? Don't you want to live in like a house with a backyard or be able to send your kids to private Islamic school. Those things cost money. I mean it doesn't matter if he's a teacher or an engineer or whatever but I mean he has to seem like he has a plan about these things and not like oh i'm going to open up a business and i'll probably be a millionaire in a few years. (<---actually what one guy said to me) or Allah will provide..it's already written for me. Uh HUH.


Quote
3. What if he doesnt get on with his sisters, cos there is a disconnect islamically?
You don't have to have the same aqeedah to get along with someone. I would find out...when his sisters want something does he help them get it, does he support them, does he give them rides, does he help them around the house, does he tease them, does he yell at them, does he expect them to do everything and listen to his every word. Is he chauvenistic, is he a jerk, what do they think of him? You can really tell a lot from that stuff.


Quote
4. What kind of things define substance in the personality (to you) ?

I don't know what this means exactly, but I look for someone who has integrity, values, similar goals and interests

Quote
what actually makes the guy interesting or exciting for you?
For every girl this would be different I think. Definitely things like sense of humor, charm, kindness, the way he talks/interacts, physical traits (ie for some tall etc)
Logged

Ponderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #12 on: Feb. 16, 2009, 08:40 PM »

1. What if he doesnt like the idea of having friends of the opposite gender? Maybe he has some online, but no contact whatsoever offline?
Friends are friends, regardless of gender (my opinion). You don't have to have female friends.

2. What if he doesnt have a stable income, but is immensely ambitious and has the courage to chase his dreams and to help his wife chase hers? (and is working on the income element)
If I will be working then I suppose I could support him but perhaps this will not be what he wants?

3. What if he doesnt get on with his sisters, cos there is a disconnect islamically?
I agree with Jannah's answer here. Is he too harsh with or judgemental of them? (On the other hand they might be judgemental of him)

4. What kind of things define substance in the personality (to you) ?
Again agree with Jannah's answer here.

Also, you've kind of listed generic traits about the guy, in terms of his core values, but what actually makes the guy interesting or exciting for you?
I think every girl has their own idea of what their Mr Darcy would be like.

And what about Hijab also?
I think a husband shouldn't force his wife to wear Hijab. Being a girl I feel it is something very personal and something I would do from my iman. I would hate to have ill feeling towards it because I am being forced to wear it.
Logged

Eemo

  • Guest
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #13 on: Feb. 16, 2009, 09:43 PM »

Oh, the Irony.

.
While you all do have valid points, let me just respond to those with what the men are thinking. And bear in mind these are not just my own personal views. Alot of these account for my friends' opinions and other men I've come across.


Income

Allah can take wealth just as quickly as he can give it.
No one knows what is around the corner. Especially in this economic climate.
If this is the attitude that the women are taking, then this is what the man is thinking.

Will she leave me if I'm suddenly made redundant or cant work due to ill health?
Wealth can be generated and re-generated at any time. What you cant recount or re-generate is a good healthy marriage, and good marriage is not determined by a man's income.

This doesn’t mean that any of the men are negating their responsibilities as '..Protectors and Providers..' but I don’t understand what happened to the 'Just Nikah' option?

Remember when a sahabah came to Prophet(pbuh) asking for financial advice, and the prophet told him to have kids?

Have you forgotten the example of Khadijah(RA) who didn’t marry him for his wealth?


What happened to meeting half-way?
 If a man really is approaching you and telling you he may be earning a lot of money in a reasonable timeframe then why not agree a time limit?
How about doing Nikah and letting him run his business for X months or Y years, and then if it doesn’t work out you can both mutually agree he will go and find a steady job just like regular folk?
After all, steady jobs just don’t help us all meet our ultimate financial dreams and goals. They only way to do that is in business (but that's  another topic for a different day, and perhaps even a different forum).

How would it make you feel, if he suddenly left you because you found out you couldn’t bear children? Compromise goes both ways.

This is exactly why I am open to dialogue with sisters that have been previously married, because they used the "income" criterion the first time and found the wrong man. They have already learned their lesson(s). No doubt, other factors do come into play and, yes , I'm generalising but it can and does happen.

It's as you have said in another post already, people want to get married for different reasons, be that companionship, to address their physical needs, or even for the joy of children.  Needs and desires can and do change over time, but if the couple are committed to each other, they can work things out. This is the name of the game.

Its this kind of attitude which is exactly why the men search for Angelina Jolie, because the predominant thought is….."well if I have to break my neck and give up my soul working day and night, then I better be coming home to the prettiest lady on the planet."
Sure it sounds misogynistic, or chauvinistic. Name it what you will, but to the men, demands of financial security as the ultimate precedence just wreak of entitlement. No man wants that.

If she's a lady of class, grace and heaps of loyalty, then the good looking woman will only pique our interest. Nothing more, nothing less.

Men want a woman that will stand by them, through thick and thin. And its exactly these kind of indicators that help them make their decision to stay or go, when prospecting.
Its not a buyers market. No one gets to call the shots here.

Where do you think the whole fear of commitment derives itself from?

As for the Islamic Schools
I don’t see them necessarily as the best option, but different men have differing opinions.
Its not the be all, end all.

True Story. On one of the forums that I frequent, a young lady came asking for advice, because her boyfriend had left her and she was upset. I didn’t think much to it, until I found out she was Muslim.
I felt genuinely sorry for her, so I offered to talk to her, to see if there was anyway I could help her.
It turned out, that, not only was she in Hijab, but she had been to one of the top Islamic Schools in the country for the past 4 years!

Ultimately, its down to upbringing and good parenting. Only parents can instil good values, or more importantly the mother. If the mother wants to siphon off the children to an Islamic School, because she isnt secure in herself that she can raise them to be good muslim children, then what exactly is her role in their lives? And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Yes the kids get access to text, and knowledge, but that can be found, now, in all types of media. After all , if they are gaining the knowledge but not implementing in their daily lives, then what good is it?

Problem with Siblings or Family
I don’t know what the situation is like in the U.S, but here in the UK, outside of London there are only small pockets and clusters of families that are practising. As a result, what tends to happen in these areas is, ordinarily only the one individual in the household is practising, while the siblings and the parents (to some extent) are leading liberal lives.
This causes a disconnect as a natural discourse, and is only to be expected.
After all, it then becomes a conflict of core values, and I've seen it in more houses than one. Sometimes it’s the youngest daughter that decides she wants to practise. Say for example, she decides to wear the hijab, but her father is dismissive of it, and sometimes it’s the son. But these situations are present.
Are you going to penalise your suitor for something beyond his control?
It doesn’t mean he isnt civil with his family.
Will you not give anyone the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps there is a genuine reason behind the disconnect?

The girl from the Islamic School that I mentioned above, when we got to the bottom of it, we found out that she clung to the first man she got find, because she felt so neglected at home. She was the only person that was practising in her family. Yes it was tragic, but it happens. Everyone wants to feel wanted and desired, especially by their own parents, and if we don’t get the love from them, we go searching for it elsewhere. Its human nature.



All in all, it just proves further that there really is a disconnect between the Muslim Men and the Muslim Women.



Logged

Jeremy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Share your experiences
« Reply #14 on: Feb. 16, 2009, 11:56 PM »

Since we are on the subject of sharing experiences, and the talk is about income and what the man can and cannot afford, let me share one of my stories...
I once found a girl who I thought would be the ideal wife I was looking for, she was someone I was introduced to through the "auntie network". After talking for a few times and meeting her family, I decided the parents should start talking about the next step. That meeting - I thought- descended to such a low level that I have never seen in my life. The subject was mainly the "Mahr" (Dowry or Dower), and other financial arrangements of the engagement and wedding.
The girl was from a lower middle class family, but her father dealt with the issue as a business transaction. He insisted on a high Mahr in addition to other wedding gifts to be agreed upon beforehand. I tried to make the argument that we can agree on a reasonable middle ground, and that all what matters at the end is that we are happy with each other and that I can afford a decent living for both of us, but he didn't want to listen, he even refused to ask his daughter for her opinion on the money issue saying that this was his decision not his daughter's decision.
of course, I had the financial ability at the time to pay whatever he asked for, but the whole thing made me disgusted of going forward in any way. I always used to think that money will never be an issue, at least that's what we were raised believing when we hear the prophet (pbuh) saying "if you were appraoched by a man who has good Deen and good manners then accept his proposal, unless you do that there will be a big fitnah on earth and a lot of corruption".
On our way back home, my father thought that maybe we should reconsider his "offer", my answer was "no way!". There was no way I would think of being the son in law of someone who sees life only in dollar signs.
So sisters, I have to agree with Eemo on this one, money comes and goes, and it is the good Deen and manners and the resilient will of the couple to make it together that lasts.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 |   Go Up
 
 



Individual posts do not reflect the views of halfmydeen.org. All trademarks and copyrights are owned by their respective owners.
Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © halfmydeen.org