Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
|04/28/01 at 23:23:53|
This is the second time I am posting this question and it has not been added to
one of the forums :( Hmm, quite disappointed in this already.
Anyhow, I had a question about Sufism and Mawlid. I know a few brothers where
I live who have started to practice the Alawi Tariqah which traces back to the
Prophet SAAS family.
I saw them 2 weeks ago and went to one unsual gathering where they were singing
and chanting duaas for the Prophet SAAS..in other words they were doing Mawlid.
Is this permissible in Islam? If it is then how come so many scholars don't
practice it? Also, what about Sufism? I know there are good sufis and bad sufis
but the controversy starts when pple say that the prophet SAAS did not practice
it therefore this act of worship is BIDA....
Please if anyone can answer these questions I will appreciate it.
[color=red][Moderator's Note: The topic of different movements in Islam is banned by the Madina Constitution. The question of mawlid which is the practice of celebrating the prophet [saw]'s birthday may be discussed although it is not clear whether or not this particular post is discussing this. The topic of bidah has been discussed in other threads.]
|04/29/01 at 01:01:10|
|04/29/01 at 10:18:41|
To moderators, well wasn't there a discussion about a movement called minhaj-ul quraan few threads ago? The person who asked the question then needed some advice and so does this person. I dunno, but it looks like an honest inquiry if taken at face value..
I think objective non-heated replies should allowed to these type of queries. This is Madrasat Al-Ilm afterall. If anyone has a good knowledge on this topic s/he should be able to step forward, right?
I am not knowledgeable on this particular topic btw, just trying to share thoughts on how to field questions about so-called grey areas..
|04/29/01 at 13:50:27|
I remember Abu Khaled wrote a very nice, long post on this topic in the old message board. Unfortunately the old board is closed now, but if Jannah can still access that post, maybe it'll be worth putting here ...
|04/29/01 at 14:20:07|
mona it would be nice if that were possible, in fact if that was true we would have no need of any of the madina rules, right :) but discussions like this tend to just degenerate into heated arguments and insults and there really is no point and benefit to it. remember this isn't the khalifa and we are not censoring what people can do in their lives etc.. it's just a discussion board!! and we've set the rules in the beginning to benefit the greater good of everyone.
|04/30/01 at 00:19:44|
i want to answer about mawlid. In Indonesia, almost muslim celebrate it. However, what i will say is just the history of mawlid as far as i know. Well, only if you allowed me. i know you have allowed discussion of mawlid, but your last few words make me confuse.
|04/30/01 at 08:30:29|
|hadid you can post about the mawlid|
|04/30/01 at 12:07:13|
Please visit the following website for detailed answers to your questions:
May Allah protect you.
[Moderator's Note: If you post anonymously expect a delay before you see the post. If you don't see your post in 1 week please inquire about it with an email address.]
|04/30/01 at 14:43:24|
visiting the islamic website islam-qa.com is not going to help me with
the question I have...neither arguing over this issue will help.
I just want some positive feedback about this practice.
I am not asking much or am I??? Well, I will let you all be the judge
of that but I don't think if a person has a simple question about some
practice is harmful for this list nor is it wrong not to answer me.
I see discussions all of the time on this list about irrelvant topics
(just b/c some of you are friends) does not mean the rest of us have to
Anyhow, if this forum is acting like this then I will go and seek my
answer elswhere...where pple are less hostile!!!
|04/30/01 at 14:51:37|
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah,
woah, hold up a second.
The fact that people have not responded to your question does not mean people are ignoring you. Sometimes being silent on an issue is better than saying something that will cause controversy, dissent, and even open hostility between people... all things we've actually seen on this board in the past. Please do not accuse us of things like being exclusive because some people are smart enough not to repeat a lot of mistakes that were made in the past. This is not a personal affront to you and not done because we dislike you or are choosing to exclude you, but because we (or at least I) know what can happen if a discussion like this gets out of hand and I don't want to see that happen yet again.
As for our irrelevant discussions and exclusive mentality...
Brother/sister, if you truly feel this way, please register, introduce yourself, and contribute to the board. I don't understand how we can be excluding someone who chooses to remain anonymous. Some of us are friends because we've been on the board for a while (ie addicts) and we speak with one another quite a bit... the majority of the people on this board I have never met before and I do not know in real life... but through posts on different topics, and yes irrelevant ones I've come to know them and they have become my friends... and I hope that's what happens with everyone and anyone who comes to the board and posts...
Again, I apologize if we have not been helpful to you or have been of no benefit, and if we come across as hostile. but I don't think that was our intention, we did not mean for you to feel like an outsider or ignored.
|04/30/01 at 21:37:37|
|so where's the reply?|
No one answered my question as of yet :(
|04/30/01 at 21:40:35|
"I just want some positive feedback about this practice".
So if I understand correctly, you're looking for a justification? If not, what
are you looking for exactly? If you were a little more clear, we would answer
your questions and you wouldn't need to accuse us of neglecting you.
|05/01/01 at 00:14:13|
Maybe no one knows the answer? A lot of my threads go unanswered, its nothing personal :) How can it be, you're anonymous! :)
Hope someone more helpful can be of a more helpful help ;)
|05/01/01 at 03:11:41|
|Mawlid were introduced by Sultan Shalahudin Al-Ayyubi, before liberation of Jerussalem.|
After a years of war againts Christ in Cross War. Sultan felt that morale and spirit of his troops deminishing. If this went all the way, Muslims would not win the war. Sultan, may be from his advisors, found a way to raise his troops' morale and spirit by reminds them about the fight of the Prophet(pbuh) and his friends in the way of Allah. The suffers, patience, and other thing about the first generation of muslim, specially the Prophet (pbuh) was told in hope to raise troops' spirit and make them istiqomah. The right timing was (is ?) Rabiulawal 12th (the birthday of Muhammad SAW).
So, since that time, some muslims still celebrate it.
|05/01/01 at 11:09:17|
I'm posting this because the case of the Alawis isn't the relatively straightforward case of difference of opinon or approach in how to spread Islam that you would find amongst the various Islamic movements around the world - with which some of us might be affiliated.
The Alawis have some major flaws in their beliefs as you will find out soon, insha'llah. I've found part of a fatwa by Ibn Taymiyyah regarding them, translated by a brother, Abu Abdullah.
What follows is Imam ibn Taymiyyah's, may Allah have mercy on him, answer to a question posed to him about the sect called an- Nusayriyyah (they are also known as Alawis/Alawite sect).
The question is very long, as it mentions many Nusayri beliefs and practices, and most of it is not translated for the sake of brevity.
Those who want to see the question in full, they can refer to Ibn Taymiyyah's Fatawa 35/145. In summary, the questioner mentioned, among other things their legalization of intoxicants, belief in reincarnation; disbelief in resurrection, Paradise and Hellfire; belief that "Five Prayers" (as-Salawat al-Khams) is an expression
referring to five names: "`Ali, Hasan, Husayn, Muhsin and Fatimah", and that mentioning these five names suffices one instead of making ghusl from major impurity, or ablution, or fulfilling other conditions and obligatory actions of the five daily prayers; that `Ali is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and that he is their god in heavens and imam on the earth etc.
What follows is the end of the question and Ibn Taymiyyah's
"…Is it permissible for a Muslim (man or woman) to marry them (Nusayris)? Is it permissible to eat the meat of cattle they slaughter? What is the ruling on eating the cheese made from the rennet of their sacrificed animals? What is the ruling on using their dishes and clothes? Is it permissible to bury them with Muslims? Is it permissible to employ them in Muslim ports and handing the ports over to them? Or is it obligatory upon the ruler to cut them off and employ others from among qualified Muslim men; and is there a sin in delaying their explusion?"
All Praise is for Allah, Lord of all worlds. These people named "Al-Nusayriyyah", and other groups from among the Qaraamitah and Baatiniyyah, are greater disbelievers than the Jews and Christians. Nay, they are greater disbelievers than most of the mushrikeen (polytheists from other than Ahl ul-Kitab), and their harm to the Ummah of Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, is greater than the
harm of the disbelievers who are in war with Muslims, such as at-Tatar, disbelieving Europeans and others.
For they present themselves in front of ignorant Muslims as
supporters and advocates of Ahl ul Bayt, while in reality they do not believe in Allah, or the Messenger, or the Book, or [Allah's]orders, or prohibitions, or reward, or punishment, or Paradise, or Fire, or in one of the Messengers before Muhammad, sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam, or in a religion from among previous religions. Rather, they take the words of Allah and His Messenger, known to the scholars of Muslims, and they interpret them based on their fabrications, claiming that their interpretations are "hidden knowledge ("ilm `ul-baatin"), such as what the questioner mentioned and more. They have no limit in their unbelief with regards to Allah's Names, His verses,
and their distortion of the Speech of Allah, the Most High, and His Messenger from their proper places [usages]. Their aim is repudiation of Islamic Beliefs and Laws in every possible way, trying to make it appear that these matters have realities that they know, like those mentioned by the questioner and others, such as that "five prayers"
means knowledge of their secrets, "obligatory fast" hiding of their secrets, and "pilgrimage to Bayt al-`Atiq" visit to their shaikhs, and that the two hands of Abu Lahab represent Abu Bakr and Umar, and that "the great news and the manifest imam" (an naba'ul `adheem wal imaamul mubin) is `Ali ibn Abi Talib.
There are well known incidents and books they have written with regards to their enmity to Islam and its people. When they have an opportunity, they spill the blood of Muslims, such as when they once killed pilgrims and threw them into the well of Zamzam. Once they took the black stone and it stayed with them for a period of time, and they have killed so many Muslim scholars and elders that only Allah knows their number. They wrote many books, such as what the
questioner mentioned, and others. Muslim scholars have written books, unveiling their secrets, exposing their veils, explaining what they are upon from disbelief, infidelity and atheism, by which they are greater disbelievers than the Jews, Christians, and Indian idol-worshipping Brahmans.
What the questioner mentioned as their description is a little from a great deal that is known to the scholars regarding their characteristics. It is known to us that the coast of Sham was only taken over by the Christians from their (Nusayri) side. And also that they are always on the side of every enemy against Muslims, so [you find that] they are with Christians against Muslims.
From the greatest afflictions that have befallen them are Muslims' opening conquest of the coast (of Sham) and defeat of the Christians. Nay, one of the greatest afflictions that has befallen them is Muslims' victory over Tatar, and from the greatest holidays for them is the Christians conquest – and refuge is sought with Allah the Most
High – of Muslim ports.
They don't admit that this world has a Creator that created it, or that He has a religion that he orders with, or that He has a place with which He will reward people for their deeds, other than this place (in this world).
Majmoo` al-Faatwaa 35/145
|05/01/01 at 15:14:23|
First, I do apologize for my selfish behavior or if it came across as such.
Jazakallah khairan to brothers Hadid and Kashif who answered my question.
I appreciate your help on the matter.
My question was more on whether MAWLID is a accepted practice or is it another
form of Bida? I know Saudi Arabia and all of their sheikhs are against such
practices. What I really want to know is if it is a right thing to do? If
singing nasheeds or nats (whatever you want to call them) is an accepted practice in
Islam? I know some brothers and sisters in Yemen who are studying under a
influential sheikh there and they recently came back and told me about this
practice. They say they celebrate MAwlid every Thursday (the night of Jummah) b/c one
should send blessings to the prophet SAAS on Jummah as much as one can. They
say that we celebrate his birth (not necessarily on his actual birth day-Rabi 12
Awwal) but every Jummah by honoring and glorifying him.
My question is if it is bida...why is it so?
Second question: Sufism--is it wrong or right? I derive a lot of joy reading
books by Ghazali but he was a sufi...is this wrong? Now again, I know
Wahaabis/Salafi's are against all of this but I don't want to hear what they have to
say on this matter...b/c I have read almost EVERYTHING they said about
Now, I emailed Sheikh Hamza but he has yet to reply.
Any of you brave enough to answer my questions??? Dont worry this is not a
thread of creating disputes or conflicts. I did not come here for that purpose.
|05/01/01 at 15:37:10|
Does Hamza Yusuf use email? Does he reply to his emails promptly? Where can I find his email address?
|05/01/01 at 21:07:24|
|Hmm ... i've made promise that i just tell about the history of Mawlid, so i must write no more. if you still curious about my opinion to this matter you can mail me.|
|05/01/01 at 22:04:12|
OK I did not want to get into this. Only because this is not a fiqh board and I think people should go to those more knowledgable than ourselves. But I realize that there are *alot* of people reading this thread and may think since the subject of mawlid was brought up including it's history that it is accepted. So here goes.. note that the following is my own understanding of my own learning... so verify it with a knowledgable person you trust inshaAllah.
The most widely accepted definition of Bidah as defined by Shatibi is that a Bidah is: an approach/path/method/tareeqa in the deen (dunya or akhirah matters, mu'amalat, aadat and ibadat) that is innovated/invented and competes with/looks like/is similar to the sharh'i approach and the intent behind which following this approach is to emphasize t'abid/ibadah/devotion(al) connection to Allah.
[i]Al bid3atoo heeya tareeqatu fiddeeni mukhtaraatun tudaahi ashariyata yuqsadoo bis-sulooqi 3alayha al mubalaghatoo fit3abadee lillahi ta'ala[/i]
So the celebration of the prophet [saw]'s birthday as an ibadah to get special reward or as something you think is part of the deen or should be included as part of the deen, is not right. We should love and celebrate the prophet [saw] by obeying him, not by having a special day for special ibadah on his birthdate! This practice is something that has a root in shariah [ie doing ibadah is good!] but now is trying to specify something that the Lawgiver through the prophet [saw] 'forgot' to tell us. How can we believe that Allah forgot to tell us anything that would help us for akhirah in dunya? Isn't it wrong to believe that the prophet [saw] didn't bring something that brings you closer to Allah? That it was forgotten? As if a person found something good that the Lawgiver was unaware of.
So through history we can see that the sahaba never celebrated the prophet [saw]'s birthday, NOR the tab'een, NOR the tab'ee tabeen-- who are the best of generations of people. Were they not most desiring of Ibadah out of everyone? If the reasons to do this pratice existed then too and none of them did it, why should we?
|05/01/01 at 22:13:10|
Bro Arsalan, Sh. Hamza does have email but I cannot give it out. That's for me
to know and you to find out :)
However, I will give you another alternative....email Zaytuna at
email@example.com or firstname.lastname@example.org.
They are pretty good in responding back in a timely fashion.
Btw, what does Sh. Mokthar (who is also one of my favorite speakers) along with
Sh. Adhami think about this issue of Sufism and Mawlid. Reason why I ask is
both are from Syria, right? Curious to know what they say about this issue.
I know that sh. Adhami recently left america for syria.
|05/02/01 at 09:16:24|
|Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem.|
Dear Brothers & Sisters,
Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.
I do not intend to be drawn into this discussion, by expressing a view. But I just wished to make a minor comment.
I agree that Imam Shatibi (ra) in Al-I’tisam defined bid’ah has our esteemed Sister Jannah as outlined it. However, Sister Jannah, with respect, your *application* of your understanding of his (ra) definition is not consonant with it - wallahu a’lam - *if* your intention is to imply a conclusion of bid’ah. Even if – for the sake of argument – your *unstated* conclusion about this mas’ala [issue] is correct (and I am not saying it is, or isn’t) that is is a bid’ah, the way you have arrived at it being so, is not from a correct application of the definition given by Imam Shatibi (ra). To warrant such a conclusion based on *his* definition, would require that mawlid *had* a root and method in the shar’a, and that another parallel method was being brought forward as the shari’i one, which differed. If you are correct in your assertion that mawlid had no shari’i precedent, then by *Imam Shatibi’s* (ra) definition, it cannot be classified as a bid’ah. That then leaves one with the question about whether it is then ja’iz [allowed], for one would require some kind of daleel [legal evidence] to justify it. I remind at this point, that I am remaining on the fence.
Of course there are other arguments one can employ, but I merely wished to point out that that if we are using the definition of Imam Shatibi (ra) as our basis, then we have already contradicted a view of mawlid being bid’ah.
To end, a general point of naseeha for all involved in this thread. When you forward a view you have adopted, if you know of the existence of ikhtilaf on the question, then *even if you don’t accept the ikhtilaf*, it is dishonest not to mention it’s existence, and the known shar’a qa’ida [juristic principle] mentions that no inkar [objection] can be made in the presence of a valid ikhtilaf. Allow others to come to an *informed* view on the matter, not a view which from the outset is influenced from your own biases. Our stand pre-supposes our own ability for fair investigation and comprehensive research. It is only fair then that we allow others the same right. If – for whatever reason – we did not engage in a process of *due diligence* in arriving at our stand, then that is our failing, and should not be allowed to influence another’s sincere quest to reach the correct view. An example of such prejudice is to take as a basis for one’s understanding the explanation of the contrary viewpoint by an opponent of it. This is not considered honest investigation. Another example, is to present only one side of the matter, when you *know* another exists, regardless of whether you yourself grant it any legitimacy or not.
My mentioning these points is not because anyone has been dishonest, ma’adallah, so please don’t take offence. Nor should anyone take this post as indicative of me taking a side on the question. So please don’t answer me by posting something about mawlid being bi’dah, or ja’iz, for if you do, then it will show that the point of my post was entirely missed. For your information, and not as a point of arrogance or boasting, I am familiar with the views on each side, the usul [bases] for them, the definitions of the relevant concepts, and the dalail [evidences] used. But knowing myself as I do, I deem it kibr [arrogance] for me to go around posturing my views on matters I’ve formed conclusions about, in public. To echo Sister Jannah’s wise words: go and verify with one of the Ahl al-‘Ilm [People of Knowledge] that you have trust in.
Know one final thing. That s/he who rushes to give an opinion *on either side* will stand before Allah (awj) one day and answer for it. So I caution you, if you lack the self-discipline *not to answer* then at least don’t do so without recourse to scholarly authority. That way you – wallahu ta’ala a’lam - cover your back for the hereafter.
Hmm, so much for my “minor comment”…;-)
|05/02/01 at 09:27:24|
|There are different types of bidah Shatibi talks about --there are some that are completely made up and there are others that are more insidious because they they do have some sharhi precedent.. ie for example praying --praying is good right...but what if someone says praying on saturday nights is an excellent thing and everyone should do it every saturday...then that becomes like that person is inventing something good in the deen that Allah forgot about? That is the whole point. |
[quote]To warrant such a conclusion based on *his* definition, would require that mawlid *had* a root
and method in the shar’a, and that another parallel method was being brought forward as the shari’i one, which differed.[/quote]
I'm assuming that whatever people do on mawlid has some kind of sharhi backing ie praying or doing dhikr or whatever they do-- that is the root in deen. So why pick one day-- the prophet's birthdate to make this a special day for ibadah? On that date the prophet [saw] did not do anything special, nor the sahabah, nor the.. etc as my first post listed so why now bring a different, newly invented (mawlid was first celebrated 600 years after the prophet [saw]) way?
I'm sure there are other viewpoints on this issue--the people who celebrate it have their justification somewhere right? I didn't mention them because again this is not a fiqh board and this is not a fatwa. :) Just some information for anonymous who seems to be desperately seeking it. So again anonymous, please ask the 'ahlil 'ilm' as was mentioned because this is a complex issue where alot of concepts of tawheed and the deen need to be ingrained first to understand the issues involved.
|05/02/01 at 09:56:58|
I would like to make a minor comment to Abu Khaled's minor comment.
"That s/he who rushes to give an opinion *on either side* will stand before Allah (awj) one day and answer for it. So I caution you, if you lack the self-discipline *not to answer* then at least don?t do so without recourse to scholarly authority. That way you - wallahu ta?ala a?lam - cover your back for the hereafter."
Doing a bidah is a major, major sin. On the Day of Judgement, those people who did bidah, even if they were practicing muslims, will be turned away from the Prophet (SAW). So if you want to "cover your back for the hereafter", don't even come near a bidah. If you lack the knowledge, play it safe. I can't say I have the kwowledge to call Mawlid a bidah, but then I don't have knowledge that shows that Mawlid was a practice of the Prophet (SAW) or his companions (RAA). So based on my LACK of knowledge, I will not partake in Mawlid.
|…and two smoking barrels|
|05/02/01 at 10:40:00|
|Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem.|
Dear Sister Jannah,
Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.
"I'm assuming that whatever people do on mawlid has some kind of sharhi backing ie praying or doing dhikr or whatever they do-- that is the root in deen."
Ya’ani, this is the point. An assumption is insufficient grounds to proceed upon in basing a view upon. If all you have is an assumption, then right now there are no grounds for any type of conclusion being made one way or the other, for the assumption remains unsubstantiated. Thus, to then ask, “So why pick one day-- the prophet's birthdate to make this a special day for ibadah?” based on assumption rather than evidence and proof, is premature, even if it turns out that your assumption is sound. For you are posing a question without yet knowing whether that which you have presumed is warranted.
Moreover, there is an inbuilt pre-validation of your own assumption, that what you are assuming to be a sine qua non is in fact a sine qua non. It isn’t. In other words, what you consider to be a validating condition for the validity of an act, is actually by itself *not* a sufficient condition, albeit a necessary one. This too needs further examaination.
Additionally, what if more than one *type* of daleel exists? Then refutation of only one type would not negate the others.
Now, we move a layer deeper…
We come to your understanding of what Imam Shatibi (ra) meant. What did Imam Shatibi (ra) mean by his (ra) definition? It is not as you seem to think, that precedent is equivalent to daleel, no. So when you equivocate “sharhi backing” to “root in deen” then this is not what he (saw) was getting at, wallahu a’lam. Why? Because for a matter to be ja’iz, it does not need a precedent in the sense you imagine. One needs to differentiate between asl [basis] and daleel (and here I use the word asl in the context of precedent, not in the context of usuli terminology). The two are not synonymous. We are now in the realms of usul. At this point it is enough to have highlighted that a difference exists, to know that some more investigation into the definition of Imam Shatibi (ra) is required, for what has been understood thus far remains at odds with what he (ra) meant.
At such an adjunct one is reminded why the study of usul al-fiqh is imperative before we start debating matters of fiqh, or raising questions about them. This is even more pertinent when our understandings are taken from secondary, or intermediate sources, because we lack the ability and capacity to access and navigate the primary sources ourselves. Without knowing usul it is like driving blind. Myself, I daren’t even make a claim to knowing this noble science, except for having an appreciation of it’s cruciality.
Regarding my words:
“That s/he who rushes to give an opinion *on either side* will stand before Allah (awj) one day and answer for it. So I caution you, if you lack the self-discipline *not to answer* then at least don’t do so without recourse to scholarly authority.”
Then ironically, my point was illustrated, in it being written that:
“Doing a bidah is a major, major sin.”
This is a good example of using a word which has a meaning in mustahalat [nomenclature] that is greater than the meaning understood by the one using it in the context s/he is using it, and thus makes an absolute and general statement, that is unqualified if one were to take the complete shari’i meaning of the concept into consideration. Precisely why we need to be careful that ideally we have a *full* - or if not, then at the least, a proficient - understanding before we decide to make a point.
|05/02/01 at 10:47:34|
With all due respect, Brother Abu Khaled, you seem to be indicating that Bidah by itself is a small thing. I don't want to get into a discussion on Bidah, by it is unanimously agreed by all the Ulema of the past that Bidah is something NOT to be taken lightly. Once people begin to accept even small Bidahs, the bidahs get worse and larger. I'm sure we all remember the posts a few weeks ago about a stampede in Pakistan in which 20 people died. This ocurred at "the door of jannah", which is a place where people think if they walk thru that door, they will go to jannah. This is obvioulsy a major bidah, but do you think that it sprouted up immediately ? No, people started getting more and more lax into allowing bidahs into the deen, with the disastorous end result.
Brother Abu Khaled, with all due respect, all the Ulema of the past have unconditiaonnly condemned Bidah. I would like to see you do the same.
|05/02/01 at 11:30:00|
|Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah my dear Brother humble_muslim.|
“With all due respect, Brother Abu Khaled, you seem to be indicating that Bidah by itself is a small thing.”
No akhi, and this is exactly the type of hastiness I was alluding to in my first post. When you don’t know what someone is saying, that you don’t start to presume that you do by making inferences, lest –as in this case – they are mistaken. I never said nor implied that bid’ah was a small thing, wal iyadhubillah. Perhaps you might in future begin by seeking clarifications, before conclusions.
“Brother Abu Khaled, with all due respect, all the Ulema of the past have unconditiaonnly condemned Bidah. I would like to see you do the same.”
Stick to concerning yourself with what the Ulema have done, not what Abu Khaled does. I am not your reference point that I need to acquire any kind of endorsement from you by appeasing you through jumping through your hoops. Immediately you lose credibility when you try to affirm a negative proposition, for by definition it is impossible. To be able to support your statement you would need positive knowledge, of an absolute and perfect nature. Since you cannot acquire that, it behoves you to be more cautious when generalising. Ironically, your statement carries within it truth, but only when qualified, not in it’s absolute form as you’ve stated it. Thus, I do agree with you, but only because I know what you mean by it, and not because it is true in an absolute sense.
Before we proceed, might you outline for me all the types of bid’ah, their classifications, those upon which there is ‘ijma, those upon there is ittifaq, those upon which there is ikhtilaf, what is it’s lexical definition, what is it’s shari’i definition, and all the hues of difference in definition amongst the usuliyyun, so competence and proficiency can be seen. And do it in your own words, rather than cut-and paste, so it can be seen that you understand that which you write about, for cutting and pasting doesn’t manifest any understanding. Except of course for quotes and definitions. Once you have done that, we should move to your request. However, *until* we have done that, we should not imagine that our little windows into bits and pieces of knowledge, constitute any kind of authoritativeness. What many of us have is what I call Kodak Islam, snapshots of Islamic understanding. We don’t study any one discipline from the ground up, comprehensively, properly, at the feet of those who are qualified to teach, Instead we take from indirect sources - in opposition to the way of the Sunnah, Salaf and Khalaf - like books, websites, tapes, etc. and acquire bits and pieces of knowledge that we then stick together haphazardly to form some kind of homogeneity that we then audaciously label an understanding. Don’t get me wrong akhi, I’m not opposed to taking from indirect sources, but let us not for one instant delude ourselves into thinking it suffices us in place of a serious, committed, traditional pursuit of knowledge-acquisition that is a long term pursuit.
Of course I was writing rhetorically, but if you wish to continue, then I suggest you email me privately, since it is off-topic, though know that I don’t actually wish to prolong this.
Imam al-Ghazali (ra) cautioned not to debate knowledge.
Pursue it, just don’t debate it. Else we end up in the middle of discussions like this. :-(
I’ll close by quoting something Sister Jenna posted yesterday in the Bebzi Stand under the title “Things 2 Ponder.........” Most definitely it applies to me first and foremost, but I feel there is much truth in it when we survey the general landscape of our discussions:
“Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?”
|05/02/01 at 11:27:28|
OK, I will do the research on this and get back to you. However, the ONLY reason I am continuing with this thread is because you are not stating in any way that you are opposed to Bidah. And the only reason I am concerned about you saying that is that you, Abu Khaled, are giving advice on this board which people will listen to. And I believe, according to the Quran and Sunnah, and again with all due respect to you, that if one does not condemn Bidah, then one is NOT qualified to answer questions pertaining possibly Bidah practices.
|05/02/01 at 11:43:26|
Abu Khaled, I AM not a scholar and cannot explain in my own words those things which the scholars can explain better than me. The point I am making is that the four Imams (may Allah's mercy be on them), who are much better qualified to talk about this subject than either you, me, or any muslim who is alive, have all condemened bidah in no uncertain terms. Hence any discussion regarding bidah must begin from this line. Doing otherwise would be, for example, to talk about an issue like riba and ignore what the four Imamas said about it.
For the information of everyone out there, here is what the four Imams said concerning bidah.
Imam Abu Hanifah has said, "Follow the traditions and the
way of the early Muslims (i.e., the Sahaba), and beware of any innovation because every innovation is
bidah," (Imam ash-Shaqairi, Sunan Mubtada'at, p.6).
Imam Malik further elaborates on this, saying, "Whoever innovates a bidah in Islam, and he sees it as
good, then he is claiming that Muhammad (saw) betrayed the trust of conveying the message of
Allah, because Allah says, "This day I have perfected your religion..." (s.5:3). So, whatever was
not of the religion then, at the time of Muhammad (saw), it can not be of the religion now," (Imam
ash-Shaqairi, Sunan Mubtada'at). Echoing a similar sentiment, Imam Shafi'i has said, "Concerning
matters of Shariah, whoever declares something good on his own, has legislated a new shariah,"
(al-Ghazzali, al-Mustasfa). Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal concludes this stream of thought when he
says, "The principles of Sunnah, according to me, is adherence to the traditions of the Sahabas,
following their guidance and abandoning bidahs, because every bidah is misguidance," (Imam
ash-Shaqairi, Sunan Mubtada'at, p.6).
I am a simpleton when it comes to Islamic knowledge. But I know the basic usuls, one of which is to worship Allah SWT the way the Prophet SAW did. Allah SWT did not make the usuls of this deen difficult to understand.
I am not going to add anything to this thread until I hear a statement from you, Abu Khaled, supporting the views of the four Imams.
|05/02/01 at 11:45:01|
[quote]An assumption is insufficient grounds to proceed upon in basing a view upon. [/quote]
"I'm assuming that whatever people do on mawlid has some kind of sharhi backing ie praying or doing dhikr or whatever they do-- that is the root in deen."
The only reason I say this is because if what they are doing doesn't have anything to do with ibadah or islam there is no point in talking about it eh? Then they can't attribute it to Islam at all, it's something they made up and they do and has nothing to do with the rest of the muslims.
Let me put it this way... IF they are doing some special ibadah that day and encouraging others to then my argument follows. IF they are saying it is part of Islam then my argument follows. IF they are saying it is good Islamically to do X on this day then my argument follows.
IF they are making up some holiday for themselves for their own reasons that is something different. You can watch TV every April 9th-- no one cares.
Assumption may be a wrong choice of words here. Let's reword it to "If whatever people do on mawlid has some kind of sharhi backing ie praying or doing dhikr or whatever they do-- then that is the root in deen."
The ultimate issue here seems to be What are people doing on Mawlid? and What are they saying about it?
Do they say it's part of the deen? Do they encourage others? WHY pick that day? What do they do that day and why?
So my "assumption" in the previous post is for those people who do special ibadah that day believing that it is good Islamically on that date especially. I'm not asking the question "do people do that?" I'm saying "for those people who do that....". It is up to the person to decide if they're doing it or not! :)
|And on and on…|
|05/02/01 at 11:59:54|
|Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah my dear Brother in Islam.|
“OK, I will do the research on this and get back to you.”
Masha’Allah, do the research, but don’t trouble yourself with getting back to me, for if you are to do the research in the manner I meant it, it will take you some years. ;-)
“However, the ONLY reason I am continuing with this thread is because you are not stating in any way that you are opposed to Bidah.”
Well akhi, given that you’ve acquiesced to doing the research, that would indicate that you don’t possess the knowledge of that which you have undertaken to do the research about. That itself should be cause enough from you refraining from continuing. Yet you choose instead as your daleel to continue, the fact that I am apparently “not stating in any way that” I “am opposed to Bidah.” Masha’Allah, do you really imagine that is sufficient Islamic grounds for persisting? You are continuing based upon other than a valid daleel.
Ya’ani I am opposed to bid’ah, of course, but how do you know that what we both understand of that which we discuss is identical? Neither of us knows what the other has studied, read, heard, learnt. Furthermore, your preoccupation with what I am not stating signals a concern away from Him (awj), and time spent on me. Know that I am not worth such expenditure of your energy. Does what I say carry any kind of weight with you? I should hope not, for you cannot even attest to whether I pray five times a day, much more that I am someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to Islam. So don’t place any kind of value in the words of those you know nothing about.
“And the only reason I am concerned about you saying that is that you, Abu Khaled, are giving advice on this board which people will listen to.”
Masha’Allah I never realised I was the focus of your attention. Nevertheless, I challenge you to bring me a single instance of where I have given someone a hukm or fatwa. And if I have, that I have not added a disclaimer about myself and my paltry understanding of Al-Islam. It is not my responsibility if others act on my words. Those who’ve been reading my posts for some time can witness that I regularly append my posts with warnings about not taking your Deen from those you don’t know, and thus cannot vouch for whether they are qualified, or have authority. In fact, for your information, it is rare that I quote ayaat or hadith, except scantly. Not because I don’t make recourse to them, wal iyadhubillah, but because I hesitate and shudder to quote them out of context, or if someone might take make an inference from the context in which they’re being quoted.
Moreover, don’t make me into your cause, or campaign. If I were to comment on every point of contention in every post I read here (yours included), I’d never get anything else done in my life, so one needs to know when things can be left alone, and when one must address something. Purify your own heart from it’s vain desires before you target me and what I do here. Know what is more important given that you move towards death every moment.
And how do you know people will listen to me? I prefer to presume others have a level of intelligence that they think for themselves, rather than assume they are sheep. That would be patronising.
“And I believe, according to the Quran and Sunnah, and again with all due respect to you, that if one does not condemn Bidah, then one is NOT qualified to answer questions pertaining possibly Bidah practices.”
Fortunately for us, what *you* believe is not a source of law in Islam. And neither should it be for you for that matter. So not only is this belief of yours logically flawed, it is not a daleel to prevent those who don’t subscribe to your tenets from proceeding. Notwithstanding this, your ire seems a bit unnecessary, since I have not answered any questions about bid’ah practices, and stated from the outset that I did not intend to get drawn into the discussion of the thread. And for your information, I don’t consider myself able to do that, which is one reason why I am not.
|05/02/01 at 12:21:36|
Jannah, what is the name of this book by Shatibi from which you took the quote?
Also, can someone suggest some good books on Usul al-Fiqh in English? It would be nice if you could also tell me something about the authors of these books, which would give credibility to them for writing on this topic.
If you don't want to put it here, then please email me.
Jazak Allahu Khairan.
|05/02/01 at 12:29:10|
With regards to Bidah here is what Dr. Siddiqi (ISNA's president) said:
Q 2.What is Bid'ah and how can we avoid it?
A.2. The word "bid'ah" means "innovation, something new". In the Islamic religious terminology it indicates "adding in the religion something for which there is no authorization neither in the Qur'an nor in the Sunnah." Islam does not forbid from new things, but it does not allow human beings to add or delete things from the religion of Allah. People should follow the religion of Allah in its purity. Allah says in the Qur'an, "And they were not commanded except to worship Allah making their religion sincere for Him and being straight… (Al-Bayyinah 98:5)
Bid'ah is basically limited to the acts of worship, because the rule is that every thing in 'ibadat is forbidden except that which is allowed. Thus we are not supposed to add another collective prayer unless we know that the Prophet -peace be upon him- used to do it. We are not supposed to introduce a new day of fasting without any evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah. We are not supposed to add a new obligatory charity beside what the Qur'an and Sunnah have mentioned and we are not to introduce any other pilgrimage beside what we have in the Qur'an and Sunnah. But in our worldly affairs every thing is allowed to us except what is prohibited. Thus we can eat whatever we want, except what Allah has forbidden us. We can wear whatever we want except that we should not expose those parts of the body that Allah and His prophet forbade us and we should not wear those types of clothes that are forbidden to us. Except for those things that are forbidden every thing else is permissible.
Bid'ah should be avoided all the time. The Prophet -peace be upon him- said, "Every bid'ah is error and every error is in hell." This is very serious. We Muslims should learn our 'ibadat from the Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah and when we know that something has no sanction in the Book of Allah and in the Sunnah of His Messenger then we should leave it regardless of our customs and traditions.
|05/02/01 at 12:46:18|
Now that we are agreed that we are all opposed to bidah,my advice to you, Anonymous, is this :
Don't generalise people or groups.
Take each action one at a time.
If the action you see can be shown to have been performed by the Prophet (SAW), do it.
If the action you see was not performed by the Prophet (SAW) or his companions (RAA), do not do it.
Avoid arguing with people about particular actions if you disagree with them, but onyl do them if the Prophet SAW did it.
It's not rocket science, and Inshallah you can't go wrong if you follow these simple rules.
|05/02/01 at 13:00:57|
|Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah once again Brother humble_muslim.|
I had to withold a smile upon seeing you quote Imam ash-Shafi’i (ra). You revealed more about what you don’t know than what you do in that.
Okay akhi, once again you’ve made my point for me. The immediate cut-and-paste of haste. Tell me now, have you read the books you quoted? Or are you just quoting them via a secondary source? If you are, then you obviously haven’t even studied the texts that you quote, so how then can you possibly even verify whether you have quoted properly? It is like the one who starts debating the meaning of an ayat based upon the english translation! You haven’t even seen the words of the Four A’immah (raa) with your own eyes, yet you think you can form an informed scholarly opinion. Subhan’Allah. Have you even read the Mustasfa? Can you tell me what it is about? Or have you just wheeled out some quotes from it which you yourself never extracted, but took from a secondary or tertiary source? What does that say akhi? That you need to be spending more time taking steps to becoming one who can access that which you quote, and less time quoting! Believe me it will do more for you to be able to access primarily such motherbooks that you so casually quote without even appreciating their magnitude and significance, than reproducing quotes secondarily, in the absence of context, isnad, credibility, establishment of reliability, and all that is so much more than that.
“I am a simpleton when it comes to Islamic knowledge.”
So heed the advice of Imam al-Ghazali (ra) then. Since I am as you are, I do.
Really akhi, it is not my desire to prolong this, but you will insist on trying to corner me. In doing so you unravel you. I am not about to be so completely stupid that I oppose the Four A’immah (raa), but are you so naïve that you think I am about to accept the quotes from one I don’t even know (i.e. you)?
It is related from ’Abd Allah Ibn al-Mubarak (ra, d.181 AH) that he is reported to have said, “According to me, the isnad is from the Din. If it were not for the isnad, whoever wished could have said whatever he wished.” He (ra) is also reported to have also said, “The example of the one who studies his Religion without an isnad is like the one who attempts to ascend a roof without a ladder.” [Sharaf Ashab al -Hadith (1/15) of al-Khatib al-Baghdadi]
Also, it is related that Sufyan ath-Thawri (ra, d.161 AH) reportedly said, “The isnad is the weapon of the Believer. So if he does not have a weapon with him, what will he fight with?” [Ibid. (1/15)]
So, can you provide for me the asanaid for those quotes you attributed to the Four A’immah (raa)? If not, I am perfectly within my Islamic right to pause before accepting them, and verifying them. However, just for your information, I am aware of these quotes. I just take them from those who I know, who have the authority to narrate and relate, and are qualified to do so.
Did you ever check those quotes, or did you just – as is the manner of the unscholarly – just accept them as definitive, sure that no context surrounded them, and representative of the final word of the Imam (ra) on the issue? I can bring you something by Imam Fulan that might leave you stunned. Only when I told you that it was made early in his (ra) career would you release your breath, when I told you he (ra) had recanted upon it. I can bring you quotes from our most illustrious scholars that will have you scratching your head and double-taking. Then I’ll inform you there was a context, and you’ll sigh easy. The point? Not that what you’ve quoted is wrong, but that you – as is my guess – cannot affirm that they are right, for you haven’t undertaken due diligence. Not because you didn’t want to necessarily (though perhaps), but because right now you are not in a position to be able to, and thus you are forced de jure to rely upon trust, due to that age old acorn known as an asymmetry of knowledge.
Are you a seeker of knowledge, or just an acquirer of quotes? Seeking knowledge necessitates validation, verification, investigation, research, all of which accompany the tasks of the talib [student], for they can only be undertaken once conceptualisation begins to form, understanding is sought, and the steps to the knowledge of that being studied are being ascended. And until all that has been undertaken it requires one to know one’s place and remain silent about that which has not yet properly been studied, lest they create more damage than rectification by their unlearned words. It needs for one to appreciate that the bulk of what s/he currently accepts as being sound knowledge is built on trust, not primacy. It requires humility in the cognisance of knowing that one doesn’t (yet?) know.
“I am not going to add anything to this thread until I hear a statement from you, Abu Khaled, supporting the views of the four Imams.”
Masha’Allah, so perhaps I’ll get some peace and quiet if I button my lip and don’t provide you with that. ;)
Till tomorrow, or thereafter…
|05/02/01 at 13:41:36|
Abu Khaled, as you have now said that you are opposed to bidah, I will continue.
You raise some very valid points. I am NOT a scholar, and have spent very little personal time with real scholars. However, I have tried to keep myself knowedgable thru reading the Quran and the books of hadith, and asking those with knowledge if something is not clear.
I am also not as eloquent a speaker as yourself.
You are correct in stating that the quotes I gave from the four Imams may not be valid because they may have been out of context. But pray tell, what is the correct way to approach the problem ? From the way you are speaking, it would take YEARS of effort on my part to reach any conclusion about any Islamic ruling.
There is a golden ayat in the Quran repeated many times : "Obey Allah and obey his Prophet (SAW)". So when the Prophet SAW has said not to make new things in the deen after him, who am I, an ignoramus, to say that I need to spend years figuring out exactly what that means ?
The Sahaba (RAA) were not PHd students, some of them were illiterate.
Therefore the deen must be simple, and not require years of study to undertand the basics.
Allah has given me a miniscule understadning of the deen, but with it comes a responsibilty : to spread it. So if I read someone saying something against the undertsanding Allah SWT has given me, and out of the fear of Allah, attempt to correct it, am I comitting a sin ? If So, I beg Allah's forgivness, Astagh Firuallah.
I will re-iterate that according to my understanding, one should not do any action in ibadat which the Prophet SAW did not perform or approve, and that if one does so, one is committing a major sin. This is my understanding based on what I kown from the Quran and Sunnah, and what I have been informed of by REAL scholars. So if I read anyone saying anything to the contrary, I feel duty bound to stand up and talk against it.
One more thing. I am prepeared to take back the quotes I gave because of a lack of isnaad. However, by the same logic, I am not prepared to partake in Mawlid for exactly the same reason : an isnaad going back to the Prophet (SAW) stating that Mawlid is either a fard or recommended act.
Abu Khaled, I love you for the sake of Allah, and appreciate the many elqouent posts which have obviously had noticeable beneficial effects on us board members. Do not take what I am saying personally against you.
|05/02/01 at 13:47:09|
About bidah it's a very broad term.
I don't know how many of you have read Sh. Nuh Ham Keller's book but he defines
bida in 2 categories: hasan sunnah (even if it was not practiced by the prophet
SAAS himself) and bad bidah or way. Now innovation can wear many definitions.
For instance, eating with a fork or spoon is also considered bida b/c during
the time of rasul (Saws) it was sunna to eat with one hand's (you know the hadith
about barakah, etc)
So, how can one really classify what is bida and what is not. Well, don't we
have to look at what the Qur'an and sunnah say? Yes, we do but at the same time
we can draw from our own inferences that bida can be good or bad.
Bida itself is not a bad term as many people make it out to be. So, we should
get our terminology straight on what acts classify bida and what classify
As i was telling you earlier in one of my postings, my friends told me there is
nothing wrong with coming together as a group EVERY week (not just on the
prophet SAS b-day) to honor him. Further, are they doing bida by reading his seerah
and singing nasheeds (sending salawat to him)? I don't think so. (my personal
Finally, let me ask all of you this.
Isn't bida something that goes against the shariah not necessarily something
that was not practiced by the prophet saas? if a group of pple are praising
Allah and honoring the prophet saas every week (Even if it not written that this is
a act of the prphet saas) why is that wrong? Aren't they trying to practice
Islam, aren't they trying to remember Allah? aren't they trying to honor the
Isn't this considred a "good deed" if you will rather than something haram or
something extraordinory. Albeit, it has not been written in any of the hadith
books? Didn't the sahaba honor their beloved MEssenger (saas) when he was alive
by seeking shifa through him?
Such as drinking the water in which he made wudu from? (paraphrase hadith)
So, I ask all of you if I am doing somethign that is not haram or sinful, then
why is it all of a sudden bida?
Either I am confused or something?
|can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows?|
|05/02/01 at 21:06:28|
|as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,|
I have some comments to make.
Anonymous, by your last post it seems to me that you did not come here seeking knowledge or advice about something that was unclear to you or you felt you needed to learn more about. It seems like you already have a well formulated opinion on this subject. If this is the case, then it makes me wonder *why* you posted this question in the first place... to get others to post their opinions and open up a discussion on this topic... perhaps to prove your case? wAllahu 'alam...
But this board is not for us to debate issues such as these, to give our opinions or to argue about things others far better than us have already taken on and figured out. In truth, though I do not know any of your backgrounds, I doubt any of us here are equipped with the proper foundation of 'ilm, experience, and hikmah to address these issues in a way that would be acceptable shari' wise and stated in such a way as to not cause trouble and dissention... and if you do possess these qualities, your time would be better spent doing daa'wah, teaching classes, or even opening up a fiqh message board/website where you can address these issues properly.
Second, for those of you who felt the need to respond to this post, think about all the heated debates that have happened in the past... not only on this message board but in any 'islamic' chatrooms or on other message boards you have visited... issues like this are *never* resolved on the internet... because those who discuss them lack proper knowledge on the issues, they get emotional/defensive/hostile, and the discussion become personal and clouded instead of objective, clear, and well-rooted in knowledge. Why is it we continue to discuss these issues though we know that we will not resolve them? Why do we perpetually bring up topics that scholars differ on and discuss them like we know what we're talking about when our knowledge is limited to weekend seminar fiqh and at best a couple years of study?? It drives me crazy... our time can be used for so much more benefit... we need to do more dhikr and a lot less bicker :P
This post should be locked. It should never have been opened in the first place. This message board was built upon certain rules, rules that protect the discussions here from a lot of the debate and arguing that our ummah is *plagued* with. What we're doing here is not scholarly debate... that's a self-righteous label for the layperson's bickering that's happening here or that this thread is going to turn into.
Anonymous, I do not mean to diss you in this post, but if you have serious concerns when it comes to these issues you need to take them up with serious people of knowledge who actually know what they are talking about, and who can *teach* you something by covering the issue completely and thoroughly. This is your *deen*, and you need to be careful who you take it from.
However, if you've come to this board wanting to open up a debate on this topic, jazak Allahu khayran, but my time is best used elsewhere.
|05/03/01 at 00:15:25|
|[quote]we need to do more dhikr and a lot less bicker[/quote]|
I think thats one for your quote site!
|05/03/01 at 00:53:36|
Anonymous go back and read the definition of bidah that Dr. Siddiqi (President of ISNA) gave.
|05/03/01 at 09:13:02|
This thread has been locked. If a discussion's outcome is more harmful than good-- then it is not worth it I think. Again, for those interested in this/these topics this isn't the forum. This is NOT a fiqh board where you get answers to Islamic questions. There just happens to be Muslims here and they might discuss an Islamic topic but that is all. Please re-read the rules--they apply to anonymous posts as well. It is not your right to post here. It is a privilege and if it isn't towards the interests of the greater good of all the people that read and post here then it is our duty as moderators and administrators to prevent it.
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