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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
|Answering a racist|
|05/01/02 at 18:27:46|
|I read this mail from a co-worker posted to our internal muslim mailing-list. Br. Oday's reply was amazing.. Subhan'allah:|
powerpoint slides sent a few days ago about the massacres in nablus and jenin. The ones with the horrible photos of people tortured, burned, mutilated, and houses demolished, etc, etc...? Anyways, I sent those powerpoint slides to people that I know. One of them (american-with some jewish decent) by the name of Emerson, replied to me. I have pasted Emerson's reply below. So then, one of my friends, Oday Baddar, a very intelligent 22 year old Palestinian replied to Emerson for me. I have also pasted his reply below, after Emerson's. You should seriously read this and forward it to everyone. This is a typical mind of an anti-Palestinian. Oday's reply is based on incredible, true knowledge that I believe everyone should learn something from. So read on, and pass it on. Let me know what you thought.
EMERSON'S REPLY TO ME
All such death demands prayerful reflection.
Especially when comitted against (likely) innocent
victims. Of course, that is based on the assumption
that these photos are what is claimed.
If you are interested in facts, there is a good start
below. Israel is not innocent, but far less guilty of the
desire to exterminate a race (as well as democratic)
than any Muslim dictatorship, including Palestine. (Is
there a Muslim countrythat is not a suppressive,
totalitarian, military, arguably terrorist regime?
It is in Muslim scripture (and please correct me if I
am wrong that "the infidels" (ie the Jews) must be
exterminated. And you compare Israel to the Third
Reich? Beyond comprehension.
Consider the preciptating cause for the Israeli
invasions into the two mentioned towns-- more of
the same random violence that Israel has sustained
Complaining about bedroom and in-home violence?
Hello? Just don't go to any religious service,
shopping center, or pizza parlor, and keep your
fingers crossed. This is Palestinian operating style,
The level of objectivity in that slideshow is on par
with my eight-year old cousin's complaint that hi s
teacher was picking on him.
It is astounding to me that a gifted woman such as
yourself can even STAND, let alone endorse, such
Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict
HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE
ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....Takes just 1.5
minutes to read!!!!
1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a
nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the
rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying
themselves as part of a Palestinian people in
1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the
Jews have had dominion over the land for one
thousand years with a continuous presence in the
land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635
C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the
Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the
capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought
to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not
come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in
Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is
not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem.
Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with
their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab
refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab
leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from
Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in
1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The
number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is
estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not
absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which
they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is
the only refugee group in the world that has never
been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed
into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New
13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are
represented by eight separate nations, not including
the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost.
Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the
destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given
the Palestinians most of the West Bank land,
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were
desecrated and the Jews were denied access to
places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made
accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the
175 Security Council resolutions passed before
1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted
onbefore 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem
Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians
systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish
cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians
enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews
from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
|05/01/02 at 18:28:59|
|Re: Answering a racist|
|05/01/02 at 18:33:25|
ODAY'S REPLY TO EMERSON (ON MY BEHALF)
To even begin to assume that the victims of the Jenin massacre, as well as other Israeli massacres throughout it's bloody history since its inception in 1948, are "not really" innocent, is already a crime against humanity, a crime that is defined today as "racism". BinLaden, too, believes that the victims of September 11th were not innocent, but were legitimate targets.
BinLaden is not crazy. BinLaden has a logical reasoning, although there is no argument that his logic is racist and inhumane. BinLaden, has made every American citizen (including Muslims) a legitimate target to annihilate. Why? Because in America, where there is a democracy, the people elect their government, and hence the people become responsible for the actions of their government. Not only do Americans choose their leaders, they also fund their campaigns, and most importantly, they fund their military campaigns, billions of dollars, transformed into weapons, that end up killing "the enemy".
When BinLaden supporters are asked: "What about the innocent lives who died?" They answer with confidence: "This is war, innocent people will die in the process".
How different are you from BinLaden's ideology?
Israel, as you say, is a democratic country. But so was the United States for the last 200 years. How many Native Americans were killed under this great democracy? How many Blacks were enslaved under this great democracy? Who said that being democratic is the same as being peaceful and just? Israel is a democracy to the Ashkenazim Jews, and the rest of the people descend down the ladder, until we arrive to Arab Israelis, who are full citizens, yet treated as second-class citizens. Arab citizens get an orange sticker placed on their bags when they want to travel. Orange sticker means you and your luggage will be searched thoroughly, may include a strip search. Jewish citizens receive a green sticker on their luggage, which means they go through minimal security, and smiley officers. This is just one obvious example. Of course, not to mention that I am excluding the possibility that you justify slavery and genocide, or simply choose to deny they happened.
The Muslim scripture (better known as the "Quran", but I am sure you already knew that) has no reference to any genocidal tendencies. When did you read in history that Jews were persecuted by Muslims? Never. The Jews were persecuted and slaughtered by Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, Crusaders, and most recently Europeans (on top of them Nazis). During the 1400 years of Islamic history, Jews (and Christians) were treated with "justice". And during the British occupation of Palestine, both Jews and Arabs fought side by side, to throw the British out of their homeland, Palestine. With your great knowledge of history, I am sure you are also aware that Jews living in the HolyLand prior to 1948 called themselves Palestinians. Some of them still exist in the WestBank, who refused to adopt the Israeli citizenship, for religious reasons. In the orthodox understanding of Judaism, the establishment of Israel must be done by the Messiah, in complete peace, and respect to all other non-Jews.
Albert Einstein - "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish State. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish State, with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain".
In an article published in the Washington Post of 3 October 1978, Rabbi Hirsch (of Jerusalem) is reported to have declared: "The 12th principle of our faith, I believe, is that the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiled who are dispersed throughout the nations of the world. Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism. Zionism wishes to define the Jewish people as a nationalistic entity. The Zionists say, in effect, "Look here, God. We do not like exile. Take us back, and if you don't, we'll just roll up our sleeves and take ourselves back." The Rabbi continues: "This, of course, is heresy. The Jewish people are charged by Divine oath not to force themselves back to the Holy Land against the wishes of those residing there".
On one hand, you use religion to explain Israeli massacres (well it's their land for thousands of years! and the Palestinians only existed 22 years!). On the other hand, you use politics to justify the Israeli incursion, let alone occupation and murder (look what the dictatorship-Palestinians have done! They must be punished for their crimes against democratic-Israel!). But most amazingly, your disgusting historical falsification is perhaps your ultimate weapon, against your own intelligence. Unlike your 20 pointer bullshit, I have read some books written by Israeli, Jewish, Arab, American, and European historians. Even the Bible says "The Land of Canaan" was promised to the Jews. The Bible itself acknowledges that the Jews were not the rightful owners of the land.
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, and much of Syria and Jordan... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans, and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks, and old Canaanite tribes." Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."
"But all these [differet peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree... And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"The extended Kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years... Then it fell apart... Even if we allow independence of the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 BC to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined... Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31, 1998.
"Palestine became a predominantly Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance... In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic... Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation... Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
"...Not only was the land being purchased [by Jewish immigrants]; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine." Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens Ahad Ha'am, a zionist leader, wrote in 1891: "The Arabs understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at". Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated: "We shall try to spirit the penniless Arab population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country ... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly".
"... The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.
|05/01/02 at 18:39:39|
|Re: Answering a racist|
|05/01/02 at 18:38:23|
"During the Middle Ages, North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere... In the Holy Land ... they lived together in harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the "rightful" possession of the "Jewish people" to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest".
"Britain's high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said "all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators' ... The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state... About 700,000 [50%] fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Fund... On December 19, 1940, he wrote: "It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country... The Zionist enterprise so far ... has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'... There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
"Ben Gurion summed up in 1936: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area for settlement ... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." Israeli Historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."
"Ben Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October . But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' ... But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October  offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949".
"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede phat the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin Massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it - or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron.
"The BBC monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throught 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flar orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher.
"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose... most descisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants... even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel".
"During May  ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestine exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim... [Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished ... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the Southeast, were also leveled ... By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949".
"The winter of 1949, the first winter of exile for more than seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians, was cold and hard ... Families huddled in caves, abandoned huts, or makeshift tents... Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine - the new state of Israel... At the end of 1949 the UN finally acted. It set up the UNRWA to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely." by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.
I can go on and on. But fortunately, this is enough information to provide that your reading of history is false and completely disconnected from reality.
Your attempt at denying Palestinians their civility and humanity, is nothing but racist and hateful; mostly, though, just ignorant.
The Indians have pretty much either been wiped out, or became completely naturalized into the new American nation, where they have more rights than normal American citizens of any other ethnic background. In Israel, there is still an occupation. A humiliating occupation of over 3 million Palestinians, who have been denied rights of citizenship, let alone rights of humanity and pursuit of happiness. The same inalienable rights that you, as an American, would DIE in order to protect, you are denying them to Palestinians.
Instead of running around with your 20 brief facts, the brief bullshit, that you use to moralize the massacre, oppression, and humiliation of another people, based on race, religion, and ethnicity; I seriously suggest that you go and do some serious research, and find out what really happened.
All oppressors, throughout history, have had similar justification for the massacres they committed. Hitler, for example, spoke in the name of the civilized world. Hitler claimed that Germany was the ultimate civilization, and all others are barberic and ignorant. This is how he justified his occupation of Europe. He claimed that this will bring order to the world. An order which denied all non-arians life, and gave them nothing but genocide. Too bad the Israelis cannot commit a genocide today, since the cameras are all over the place. Nevertheless, every once in a while, when they feel like killing hundreds, they just ban journalists and cameras to enter into what they called "military zone", as they did in Jenin.
Also remember that anyone who fought against the German occupation were considered terrorists. The French 'La Resistance' targeted not only Israeli military forces, but also innoccent German civilians, as well as French collaborators. As we look back into history, we can only admire the bravery of the French La Resistance, despite its terroristic tendencies. We do this, because we recognize that the true problem is the German occupation and oppression. That is the real problem, and the root of all violence.
If BinLaden occupied the US, would you not fight? If the only weapon you had was a bomb you could strap on your body, would you not use it? Maybe you won't, but surely out of the 300 million Americans, someone would. In movies like "BattleField Earth", we see the suicide bomber as the hero of the movie. In movies like "The Patriot", we admire Mel Gibson's bravery as he targets British civilian shops and blows them to pieces. And when William Wallace sacks York, it is only the natural act of revenge.
When the Japanese occupied China, America took a strong stand, and ordered sanctions on Japan, which led to the war in which millions of Japanese civilians died. Was the US practicing atomic terrorism on Japan? Or how about the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, we took a stance there too, and tore Iraq into smithereens. So we can clearly identify occupation as "wrong". Why is the occupation of Palestinian territories any different?
Let's see how you go around, to justify that illegal occupation. You deny the Palestinian identity, you deny their existence, you deny any religous connections (as you well know, Palestinians are both Muslim and Christian), and you also deny them their innocence when they are slaughtered, oppressed, or expelled to die in tents in some abandoned desert along the border.
You can claim all you want. The liberation of Palestine is coming anyway. And history will remember your views right next to BinLaden, Hitler, and Sharon. Only a racist and hateful bigot can see pictures of death and justify them. Try claim that the Nazis did not kill 6 million Jews, see how the world will react.
The Israelis are still applying methods of extermination of Palestinians. Either by killing them, expelling them, bulldozing their homes and fields, or starving them to death in curfews and seiges.
"The record of Israeli terrorism goes back to the origins of the state - indeed, long before - including the massacre of 250 civilians and brutal expulsion of 70,000 others from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948; the massacre of hundreds of others at the undefended village of Doueimah near Hebron in October 1948;... the slaughters in Quibya, Kafr Kassem, and a string of other assassinated villages; the expulsion of thousands of Bedouins more from the region for Jewish settlement; and on, and on." Noam Chomsky, "Blaming The Victims".
|05/01/02 at 18:40:18|
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