// what should I reply to a friend who left Islam
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Anonymous
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« on: Aug 30, 2008 12:47 AM »


Salaam
I went to my old friends profile on facebook and saw that she wrote we all should live in peace with each other w/o regard to religion. So I asked her if she had left Islam. This is what she wrote back. What do you think? what should I tell her? Should I even write back? By the way I dont know if I should say 'left Islam' as I did because I really dont know if she was ever into the relgion,the only reason I said that is because her parents are Muslim. Maybe she grew up and decided to make her own choice or wasnt ever Muslim at heart. Allahualim Just clearing that up because I dont want to be accused of calling someone an apostate


"i wrote what i wrote in religion b/c i don't think it neccessarliy matters what religion you are for people to be your friend and i figured if people read that they would be like that is so true. i think religion does the opposite of what it's supposed to do and while it may unite certain members of one religion it tends to cause hatred, prejudice, ignorance, close mindedness, and division between people of all religions. just take a close unbiased look at our world and you will find it in every facet our existence unfortunately. i don't know if there is a god, but i surely don't believe anything you can do on this world is bad enough for such a severe punishment as eternal damnation, unless maybe you kill someone and then eat them which is totally sick. and if god was truly just and merciful then he wouldn't have put us on this planet just to see if we follow his rules, like a game, and at the end you either win or lose. it just doesn't seem logical to me."
Anonymous
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 30, 2008 01:31 AM »

salam


She sounds pretty immature. I'd leave her to it, and maintain contact on a very basic level. In case she ever wishes to return to Islam, you can then help her inshallah.


Wassalaam
Anonymous
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 30, 2008 07:55 AM »

it sounds like a phase - of the teenage angst kind. i say don't indulge her in too much online banter - most often these phases need their own time to pass. 

why did you ask her if she had "left islam" based on her religion entry? i too think that we should all live in peace, no matter what religion we are - that opinion doesn't turn me into a non-muslim alhamdulillah.  don't provoke people in a way in which they have to choose islam over a philosophy - it takes a lot of wisdom (and maturity?) to realize that they don't contradict each other. yes, the second part of her reply is alarming, but don't inundate her with hardcore advice (maybe just ask her a question instead).  on that note, i really don't think she has "left islam", not based on that entry, at least.

i was fond of saying "i'm not" when people asked me what religion i am.  normally, many muslim people would become lethal shortly after that, telling me that if i leave islam i will burn in hell. the ones who asked further (like my parents), i would tell them i don't think islam is a religion (you know, because it's a way of life and all).  smart aleck reply, but i truly believed it for a long time. again it was a phase and i rather enjoyed sending people over the edge. overtime, of course, that enjoyment wears out.
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 30, 2008 01:51 PM »

salam

Actually there are very logical and methodological ways to argue with a person like that. 

wassalam
Anonymous
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 30, 2008 06:45 PM »

well obviously from her post you can say that I assumed correct because she obviously does not believe in Islam, so Im not sure what your point is at the moment. Whats done is done.

How should I reply to her? I dont think it is wise to just turn her down or assume she is a teenager, because she is not. Shes actually a very sweet and intelligent young woman.

Um aboodi what do you have in mind?
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 30, 2008 09:31 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


We ask Allah to protect us and our brothers and sisters from the trials and tribulations caused by the doubts whispered by the Devil into the hearts of man.

When dealing with a person who is having doubts about Allah, you have to be careful not to push them away further.  What I mean by this is that you as a caller to the truth are battling for their heart, and so is the Devil who is eager to push them futher astray.  Thus, one has to use the wisdom and beautiful preaching.

If you can earn the respect of the person you are calling, so that they will listen with an attentive ear, and not feel like it is an argument, then you are halfway there.  This can be done through acts of kindness, presents, a smile, and such things to soften the heart.

Ask Allah to make you a key to goodness, and a lock to evil.  Begin by asking them, if God didnt' create the Universe, then who did?  Did you?  Did it create itself?  The fact is that the creation is the greatest proof of the Creator.

Don't involve yourself in the philosophy of good and evil at this point.  The basics come first.

If the person claims that something must have created God, you can say no, God is infinite, and does not need a creator.  He is pre-eternal, He is the Creator of time.

God created the finite universe.  The universe cannot create itself, not even a fly can come from nothing.

One can believe in God who is infinite, just as a physicist believes in infinity and in fact bases his equations on it.  The concept of infinity is an integral part of calculus, and belief in it is essential for modern science. 


Physical objects cannot create themselves.  Anyone who believes this is denying reality.


Futhermore, the complexity and perfection of the universe (not just the animal kingdom) indicate vast intelligence and knowledge beyond human capacity.  Scientists have stated that all the random particles of the universe put together could not create a single stand of DNA.  Please refer to the Anthropic Principle.


InshaAllah what was stated will be a starting point for you.  May Allah use you to repel the Shayateen and cause you to be the source of Khair.


And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 31, 2008 01:57 AM »

salam

I am not  good in this type of debate.  There used to have a regular poster on the board (Abu Khaled) who was very good in these type of philosophical debates.  I wonder if he may still be around ?

But the way I would approach this is to say that Allah swt gave all human beings free will, they the have the option to do good  unto themselves and others, and they have the option to harm others and themselves.  We are not put on earth to be part of an experiment.  We are here to choose our eternal destiny.  Because we have free will. 

I don't think your friend is really denying that there is a God, rather, she seems very lost and cannot rationalize why there is so much evil and disasters on earth.

Where is Abu Khaled when you need him?  Maybe you can look in the archives and look at his previous posts??

I will try to post more if I think of something.   

take care
wassalam
Anonymous
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 31, 2008 07:09 AM »

wsalam,

i think you should write back to her with your honest feelings:

- that first you agree with what she wrote that people should live in peace, regardless of religion

- that they shouldn't be prejudicial, racist, close-minded, fight etc and that you agree that sometimes people take "religion" too far and use it wrongly to cause wars, fighting etc.

- that you are sad that she doesn't believe in God and that she should take some time to think about this before she gives up on God even if she doesn't agree with some of the things that are going on in the world.

- also ask her to think about why she considers "murder" and "cannibalism" a crime yet it is part of some cultures and practiced happily there.

-- ask her to think about why she exists and why the world exists and ask her how she feels about rapists and murderers and serial killers and child abusers, and people who cause mass destruction and kill many innocent people, does she believe that such a person is the same as her and will end up in the same place.


and yes she does sound immature. one of those people where whatever you say they are so opinionated about their own beliefs and are close-minded enough to refuse to think about anything else... irony indeed.


anyway good luck, remain her friend, stay kind and nice to her but don't compromise your beliefs or thoughts when you talk to her. inshaAllah one day something might click and she might start to have faith in God again.


ps i don't think you should even judge or write whether she has "left islam". it's not our right to judge or try to figure out what her aqeedah is or whether she falls in or outside islam or whether she practices or whatever.  Allahu alam, leave it up to Allah.


ws
Anonymous
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 31, 2008 04:34 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

Often life events can alter a person's perceptions and beliefs or shake their faith; sometimes its temporary other times its permanent.  These alterations can be positive or negative depending upon the life event.  For example the loss of a loved one - particularly unexpectedly; a change in family circumstances; a change in financial stability; a disappointment - in one's personal or professional life; a change in family structure; someone entering (or exiting) one's life; etc.  Talk to your friend to find out if something (or someone) happened that has changed her perspective.  Granted it may not be what you think it is (side stepping Islam) but rather perhaps growing in understanding of the true nature of Islam.

We each walk this path of life alone; sure there are others that may join us on part of the journey but it is still an individual one.

There have been some disappointments hurts and losses in my life that have caused me to believe I'm not worthy of happiness and even wonder if Allah has forgotten about me or cast me aside and for a few fleeting moments (more than I care to admit) wondered if I would find happiness in this life if I walked a different path.  I know I wouldn't be alone but there's no guarantee that I'd be happy either.  Sure we are taught that the path to paradise is paved with hardships and that the path to the hellfire is paved with pleasures but we are also taught that with every hardship comes ease.  Well when all one sees and experiences are the hardships and the heartaches and the disappointments it is very difficult to remember what we are taught because all we want is to have some pleasures happiness and ease.

When others make the "rules' of Islam stricter than they are supposed to be people make choices: embrace only those elements they like; lose all sense of self and just deal with it all; walk away; etc.  As women we are taught that Islam guarantees us certain rights (that we will be provided for by a man - father in youth/husband in adulthood/son(s) in old age; that we don't have to work outside the home unless we choose to; that we have an equal right to space in the masjid; we will be married and that we have the right to choose; etc.) yet reality speaks differently and that in itself can seriously shatter one's hopes dreams and beliefs.  Men generally are less negatively impacted by the arbitrary application of the "rules" than women and on that I remain convinced and it applies to all men and not just Muslim men.

So I go back to my first point which is talk to your friend to see if she will tell you what may have happened in her life.  Also let her know that you are there for her; sometimes just knowing that someone is there to listen or to lean on rather than judge means the world to a person.


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« Reply #9 on: Aug 31, 2008 07:54 PM »

salam

She sounds immature on ehr outlook not young in age.

Ask her if she thinks that the world would really be a conflict free place without religion, what about race, colour, and money and power is what actually causes major conflicts. Religion is merely a good smoke screen to hide behind. It's convenient to make religion a scapegoat, and makes people feel they have right to treat others as inferior and take what is rightfully theirs.

In India it is so easy to raise a rabble, the majority of people being uneducated who are easily steered by rousing calls to arms for the sake of religion, when really it's the political parties wanting to get power. So the little people end up dead, and in dire poverty and the politicians keep their seats, because everyone is too busy fighting their neighbours to actually focus on the government who have made life worse for them by stealing money and public funds.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
Anonymous
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 31, 2008 07:56 PM »

salaam

yes you are right anon. Im thinking what happened to her is that she is in love with a nonmusim man. I knew about it since high school, its her high school sweetheart.

Now she is engaged with him and she jokes how all he has to do is 'become muslim' then her dad will accept. ...

I think it may be hard for her to understand that woman are not allowed to marry nonmuslim men. I think I can understand that because I know many reason people give just arent realistic. its a ruling that is hard to understand.

people may say that the children become with the father is but its really not true. I beleive the children really father the mothers relgion and i have seen this because the mother is the one who takes care of them everyday and takes them to church or wherever. many times u c nonmuslim men takeing care of their wives alot better than muslim men.

Anyway Im not sure if thats the reason but I can understand her issue. Because she says we are put on this earth like a game. The one who wins goes to heaven and the one who looses goes to hell. yes we have 'free choice' but the reality is we dont because God has already decided whos going to hell by closing their hearts and minds like they are blind and deaf from before they are born so they dont c reason and become muslim. .is that really fair to them? They didnt ask to made and put and put on earth!
Anonymous
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 01, 2008 01:22 PM »

Sometimes I scare myself when I'm on target and can guess about an issue (I'm usually not to far off the mark).  No doubt some of the rulings are tough to swallow because they seem so restrictive although there is wisdom in the rulings.  Especially this one prohibitting Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men as it gives appearance that men have all the options and often choose to go outside of Islam to make their choice.  No doubt that the boyfriend is a factor and if she's known him this long and is now engaged to him despite knowing that it was forbidden then her "questionning" was going on for quite some time but was kept hidden.  I say this because she chose to date him without concern.

Still you won't know for certain until you talk to her.  If she jokes that all he needs to do is become Muslim then her dad will accept  then if she confirms that it is this man that has caused her change in outlook ask her is she willing to create disharmony with her parents just to be with him and for that matter is she teaching him about Islam and encouraging him to take shahada.

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« Reply #12 on: Sep 01, 2008 06:14 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Once you have established that Allah is the Lord of the Universe, then there it is simply a matter of understanding His Wisdom in His Creation.  You can begin by clearing up the following misconceptions:


1.)  First of all, Allah does not always punish for eternity, and He also rewards for eternity.  Only a stubborn evil rejector of truth will abide forever in the fire.


2.)  Second, we are not rewarded and punished for our actions, rather we are punished and rewarded for our intentions.  Someone may have lived a life of evil, but repented at the last moment, and enter Paradise.

Furthermore, someone may do good works their whole life, but because of insincerity die on evil and enter the fire.


3.)  We should not dispair of Allah's mercy.  No one has a right to say regarding a specific person, save those mentioned in the Islamic texts, that they are in the Fire.  Allah can forgive anyone.

4.)  Who is to say that some evil-doers and stubborn rejecters of truth would not live an eternity of evil if they had a chance.  In fact, many of them would.  Since we already established that punishment is for intentions, not for actions, then an eternal punishment is most befitting.

5.)  Allah is Lord of the Universe.  The Hereafter is the pinnacle of justice and fairness by Allah.  Actually those who deny the Afterlife are the unjust wicked ones.  What could be more unjust than saying this life is it, with all the evils and injustice in it. 

Rather, if we believe in the afterlife, the wrongs of this world will all be compensated for in the Just Court of Allah.  Believe in the afterlife means we believe in true justice.



And Allah knows best.



5.) 

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:15 AM »

salam


Ah so she has a non muslim boyfriend that old chestnut.

I wonder why muslim women are so quick to think non-muslim men treat their wives so wonderfully, aren't there any domestic violence shelters in your neighbourhood? I suggest she volunteer there for a while and see for herself first hand the result of the actions these wonderful non-muslim men and their actions.

I'd choose a practicing muslim man who fears Allah every time, if one fears Allah then he will fulfill his rights and obligations towards his wife and treat her like a princess.

Btw, children tend to treat their mothers the way they see their father treat her. So if dad sits and drinks beer whilst mum prays five times a day three guesses which path a child will choose, hint its easier to sit on ones behind all day.



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:29 AM »

Sorry to divert from the conversation a little bit:

I think it's very, very difficult to reasonably explain to someone why men can and women cannot marry ahl-e-kitaab.  i'm not sure i'm convinced myself.

my maid converted to islam 1.5 months ago mashaAllah (this is her first ramadan). her husband is christian. she was crying and telling me how one of her other employers told her that her marriage is no longer valid since she is muslim, and she is now committing zina, an act which means she could be stoned to death.  she looked like she was in agony, and i felt truly helpless in that moment. 

i hate to sound doubtful, but it truly sounds unfair to me that had she been male, she would not have faced the same distress.
Anonymous
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:30 AM »

oops...that was me: JustOne Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:37 AM »

salaam

well I heard there is some diff opinion whether you actually have to leave your nonmuslim husband after you convert .. or there is some long term  period.. its not as clear cut as some people put it. just tell your maid that plz... and maybe you can do some research on it for proof.
Anonymous
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 02, 2008 06:54 AM »

salaam

well I heard there is some diff opinion whether you actually have to leave your nonmuslim husband after you convert .. or there is some long term  period.. its not as clear cut as some people put it. just tell your maid that plz... and maybe you can do some research on it for proof.

really. Well, I would like to see the references to such different opinions.

I am nearing such an opinion myself, although it cannot be a religious fatwa. And my opinion may jsut be a passing phase of my retired life. Smiley
Anonymous
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 02, 2008 12:44 PM »

Sorry to divert from the conversation a little bit:

I think it's very, very difficult to reasonably explain to someone why men can and women cannot marry ahl-e-kitaab.  i'm not sure i'm convinced myself.

my maid converted to islam 1.5 months ago mashaAllah (this is her first ramadan). her husband is christian. she was crying and telling me how one of her other employers told her that her marriage is no longer valid since she is muslim, and she is now committing zina, an act which means she could be stoned to death.  she looked like she was in agony, and i felt truly helpless in that moment. 

i hate to sound doubtful, but it truly sounds unfair to me that had she been male, she would not have faced the same distress.

I've read/heard that one of the issues has to do with respect - respecting the religious doctrine and beliefs.  Whereas Muslims respect/accept all of the prophets that came before Muhammad (saws) non-Muslims stop accepting prophets prior to Jesus and believe he is God in person/son of God.  As such a non-Muslim husband will not respect his wife's beliefs and strive to sway her from them.  Compound that with the whole issue of men supposedly being the heads of households and it is a recipe for disaster.    Do I agree with it?  No comment.  Do I accept it?  It makes sense so yes. 

Of course abusive men come from every walk of life and often use religion (or some twisted form of religious belief) as justification for that abuse.  That I don't agree with.

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« Reply #19 on: Sep 03, 2008 01:45 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,



According to Shaikh Dr. Ramadan Buti, it is not permissible for a woman to have relations with a kafir (former) husband if she accepts Islam.  Rather, she can remain in his home for the duration of the waiting period (three menstrual cycles) and give him dawah and invite him to Islam.  If he accepts during this period, they may stay together with no need for a new contract.

However, if the Iddah (waiting period) expires, she must seperate from him.

This is because Allah most High forbids a marriage to the disbelievers, since they call to the Hell-Fire.

This is Dr. Buti's fatwa.


And Allah knows best.


Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #20 on: Sep 03, 2008 02:01 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All people have to follow Allah and the Messenger, and not their own whims and desires.  Following one's whims and desires will lead to the Hell-Fire, and evil and hurt.  Following Allah and His Messenger, may peace and Allah's blessings be upon him, will lead to Jannah and happiness and goodness.


Allah says:  "Oh you who believe, answer the call of Allah and His Messenger when they call you to that which gives you (true) life."


Marrying the Kaafirs will lead to great evil, harm, and apostasy, which is punished by the death penalty according to Islamic law, since it is the mother of all evils.

An apostate will not fear cutting relations with his or her family or parents, or even call the police on them, and prosecute them in court!  How evil a way is it the Shaitan calls to.


As for a woman who accepts Islam, the scholars have stated it is not permissible for a Muslim woman to stay with a Kaafir.



It is well known that a kaafir man or a even a Muslim man who does not practice Islam will negatively affect his wife, and he may tell her lies and manipulate her using his authority over her, and this will most likely lead to her apostating and leaving the guidance.  Islam should never be subjugated to Kufr, and it is not befitting for an honorable, Muslim lady to be under the authority of a Kaafir evil-doer.




And Allah knows best.


Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
Anonymous
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 05, 2008 03:24 PM »

salaam

a woman is just as good in manipulating a man if not better so thats not a good reason .

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« Reply #22 on: Sep 07, 2008 05:49 AM »

asak
Hmmm... just a thought to ponder, because i know so many sisters who have reverted and are married with loving husbands and children- seems to be an 'epidemic' around here.

Wouldn't it be better to become Muslim and 'sinning' rather than not become Muslim- because you would eventually loose your husband and children?

If i had a wonderful husband who was a staunch Catholic and i was told i would have to divorce him if i became a Muslim.... it would be the kiss off as most of these women are past the current marriage age. We can't even get our late 20, 30 something sisters married- who is going to marry a sis in their 40's with kids- in reality?

Granted we do not know the future, however all the sisters i am referring to, years later, are still married to their husbands who never took shahadah.

"Allah surely knows the warmth of every teardrop... " Jaihoon
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 07, 2008 02:13 PM »

Assalamu'alaikum,

I went to ISNA and went to a lecture on Muslim minorities and their issues. Dr Jamal Badawi did say that there is a fatwa by scholars who mentioned that if a woman converted to Islam, and her husband didn't, she could still live with her husband if she has hope that he will become Muslim, inshaAllah. This is because seperation from her husband might have a worse psychological, emotional and spiritual effects on the woman that might eventually lead her to leave Islam.

As for evidence, we'd have to dig it up coz he wasn't able to expand on that due to the limited time that he had on stage. ALlahua'lam.
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 07, 2008 11:50 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Honorable Sis. Kathy,

You are right, it is not only better for a woman, once she has been convinced of the truth of Islam, to make her Shahadah, but she should not delay it for even a moment, because we never know when death will overtake us, and we wish for her success in the afterlife.  She she should declare her shahadah, between her and Allah.

However, as for making the Shahadah in public, and then staying with the Kaafir husband, that is debatable.  Since many scholars consider this sinful, and it could serve as a fitnah for other sisters, who will say:  So and so is married to a Kaafir husband, and such and such mufti said it is ok, so why can't I marry a Kaafir?

Allah knows best.


Honorable sis. Barr,

If you feel confident in Dr. Jamal Badawi's religion and knowledge, then you may follow his fatwa, and his opinion that this is a case of Darura (necessity).  You will be free of sin on the day of judgement. 

However, Dr. Buti mentioned a new convert woman to Islam who corresponded with him by mail.  She said some Imam in her community gave her a fatwa saying she couldn't stay with her Kaafir husband, but it didn't sit right in her heart.  She was a new Muslim, and was confused.  She kept asking, and found out that it is haram from other sources, and she left the man.  She said she knew in her heart that it was wrong to stay with him.

Sh. Buti then said, can you imagine, a new convert to Islam, she knows by her heart that something is haram, without having to go to any great scholar, yet there are Muslims who have the apparent truth in front of them, and they turn away from it.

Allah says, (translation of meaning):

060.010 O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: God knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them.



And Allah knows best.

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