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Author Topic: What is the legal difference?  (Read 5101 times)
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nuh
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« on: Aug 31, 2008 04:03 PM »


As salaam alaikum.

What is the legal difference between Qiyam al-Layl and Witr?

Ma'as salaama,
nuh
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 01, 2008 06:13 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Witr is a Sunnah and the minimum is one Rakat according to the Shafii school.

Witr is Wajib and the minimum is 3 Rakats according to the Hanifi school.

Witr is simply an odd number of Rakats prayed anytime after Isha, when one intends to sleep and will not pray anymore until Fajr.

There should not be two Witrs in one night.



As for Qiyaamul Layl, it should be prayed in pairs (2 rakats each), any time after Isha, and then finished by witr.


As for Tahajjud, it is similar to Qiyammul Layl, but it is prayed after sleeping and then waking up, usually in the last third of the night.  Then it is closed with witr.


I hope this answers your question dear akhi.


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« Reply #2 on: Sep 02, 2008 02:39 AM »

Also, I was watching AskHuda, and the scholar said that if you pray your witr with isha (not intending to wake up that night again), but then wake up in the middle of the night and decide to pray tahajjud/isha, you can.  Of course, you cannot redo your witr salah.

Also, as a common misconception, many people have been taught (Desis anyone?) to pray to witr as 3 consecutive rakahs. However, these should not mimic the style of the Maghrib salah (there's a hadith to this effect), and therefore we should not be sitting for tashaddud (is that the right word?) in the second rakah, getting up immediately after the second sujood of the second rakah. 

That was big news for me when I found out 3 years ago...and I think many people I know still pray incorrectly.
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:21 AM »

salam


Noooooo :'( :'( :'(


Also, as a common misconception, many people have been taught (Desis anyone?) to pray to witr as 3 consecutive rakahs. However, these should not mimic the style of the Maghrib salah (there's a hadith to this effect), and therefore we should not be sitting for tashaddud (is that the right word?) in the second rakah, getting up immediately after the second sujood of the second rakah. 

That was big news for me when I found out 3 years ago...and I think many people I know still pray incorrectly.

hyperventilates at the very thought I've been doing it incorrectly for the last twenty years.....

Quick someone tell us (well me), the correct way to perform Witr for a hanafi...... :'(


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 02, 2008 04:29 AM »

salaam

lol Fozia thats  what Im saying.. I had no idea! But it is weird that most pakis would pray it wrong, no?
timbuktu
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 02, 2008 06:41 AM »

[slm]

The correct method of sayting three rakahs of witr, for anyone, Hanafi or non-Hanafi, as is not to sit for tashaddud  in the second rakah, and to get up immediately after the second sujood of the second rakah.  Also, in the third rakah, ypu raise your hands for rafa-yadaen when you say Allahu Akbar.

It does not matter if you have been saying it incorrectly for 20 years or more. It is a mistake many people make. Now that you know, you should start praying correctly.
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 02, 2008 06:57 PM »

salam


Right OK, so I knew about the third rakah thing.

But second rakah one gets up immediately after the second sujood right??? OK so must remember from now on....think I may have to email this information to my sisters !!!!

Wierdly I swear they do Witr in congregation in Makkah, and I could swear it was prayed with a stop in the second rakat.... I need to go back to do umrah or hajj or both or just plain move there for a while or something and pay better attention.


Well Thank you all for this information.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 02, 2008 09:30 PM »

Asslamo Alaykum,

This is the first time I have heard that about the Witr prayer that you get up after the second sujood.

Ever since I have been praying and everyone I have seen praying always sit in the second rak'at, this has totally confused me  Huh?

Is there anywhere we can find out for sure what the correct way to pray thw Witr is? And is this backed up by anything?

HELP!!!! idunno

Walaikum Salaam x
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 03, 2008 12:38 AM »

I'm not really into copying and pasting fatwas from websites, but I did a google search on "hadith+witr+maghrib", and if you do the same, you'll find fatwas stating the same thing. 

The hadith supporting the no-tashaddud thing is as follows:

The evidence for the rule that the three Rakah of Witr should not be similar to the Maghrib prayer is the Hadith reported by Imam al-Hakim in his book named al-Mustadrak and Imam Ibn Hibban in his Book Sahih Ibn Hibban that the Prophet said: "Do not perform three Rakah of Witr resembling to the Maghrib prayer. But you can perform five, seven or eleven Rakah of Witr or more".

So as per the hanafi fiqh, just start getting up after the second sujood in the second rakah.  Or, break up your witr salah into the 2+1 style.   bropraying

Wasalaam.
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 03, 2008 03:42 AM »

salaam

ok do the imams not know this? Because I asked my husband what they do in witr in congregation (I haven t went yet) and he said they do sit down at the second rakat and then get back up.
And then he reminded me that in the old masjid we did the same.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 03, 2008 06:24 AM »

[slm]

I asked my wife (she is hanafi), and she does say tashahud after the second rakah. A tableghi friend told me the same ages ago. Apparently since rafa yadein when standing up for the third rakah is not parcticed in hanafi fiqh for the maghrib prayers, they consider rafa yadein in witr as sufficient of a difference.

I would go by JO's last post. If you want to break it up for tashahud, use the 2+1 method.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 03, 2008 06:47 AM »

Wierdly I swear they do Witr in congregation in Makkah, and I could swear it was prayed with a stop in the second rakat.... I need to go back to do umrah or hajj or both or just plain move there for a while or something and pay better attention.

Well, I must correct myself. It is not immediately. There is a short interval after the second rakah when one sits, enough for every joint to be in place, and then one gets up. This is for all prayers, not just witr.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 03, 2008 11:36 AM »

They do witr in congregation in Makkah, but they don't do 3 consecutive rakahs.  They do 2, say their salaams, and then do 1 separately.

InshaAllah it is best to ask a scholar, to clarify it fully.  The scholar on AskHuda confirmed the same thing a few shows ago (don't you guys just love that show??)
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 03, 2008 01:29 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Sister, you did the right thing by looking for what the scholars said about the issue of witr and posting it.  This is called propogation of knowledge, for which you will be rewarded.  It is far better than speaking from one's opinions.



The scholars say:
 

It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed Witr in different ways. He prayed one rak’ah, and three, and five, and seven, and nine. And he prayed three rak’ahs in two different ways, either continuously with one tashahhud, or saying salaam after two rak’ahs and praying one rak’ah and saying salaam after it. He did not pray it like Maghrib, with two tashahhuds and one salaam. Rather he forbade doing that, and said: “Do not pray Witr with three rak’ahs like Maghrib.” Narrated by al-Haakim, 1/403; al-Bayhaqi, 3/31; al-Daaraqutni, p. 172. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (4/301): Its isnaad fulfils the conditions of the two Shaykhs (al-Bukhaari and Muslim).

Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said:

It is permissible to pray Witr with three rak’ahs, or with five, or with seven, or with nine. If a person prays Witr with three, it may be done in one of two ways, both of which are prescribed in sharee’ah:

1 – Praying the three rak'ahs continually with one tashahhud.

2 – Saying salaam after two rak’ahs, then praying one rak’ah on its own.

Both of these are narrated in the Sunnah, so if a person does it one way sometimes and the other way sometimes, that is good.



It is permissible to say it with one salaam, but it should be with only one tashahhud and not two, because if he does it with two tashahhuds, it will be like Maghrib prayer, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade making it like Maghrib prayer.

 Al-Sharh al-Mumti’, 4/14-16



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« Reply #14 on: Sep 03, 2008 04:04 PM »

salam


Right so our local masjid prays witr with two tashahhuds, and all the instruction books I have regarding salat instruct the same method.

When did you all discover this was wrong who told you?

I'm serious I need to know.



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 03, 2008 04:23 PM »

Assalamo elikuim
Our Imam also pray witr with two tashahuds. I am thinking that there must be different ways to perform witr since all the hanafi Imams couldnt be wrong Smiley. The difference between maghrib and witr is dua Qunoot ?

Here is link on sunnipath ( hanafi fiqh)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3391&CATE=99

Wasalam
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 03, 2008 09:06 PM »

Assalamu alaykum,

I pray the following will clarify the confusion regarding the witr prayer:


Sr. JustOne said:
Quote
Also, as a common misconception, many people have been taught (Desis anyone?) to pray to witr as 3 consecutive rakahs. However, these should not mimic the style of the Maghrib salah (there's a hadith to this effect), and therefore we should not be sitting for tashaddud (is that the right word?) in the second rakah, getting up immediately after the second sujood of the second rakah.

The word is "tashahhud." 

What you have stated as a "misconception" is actually the correct way to pray witr according to the Hanafi school.  The witr prayer, according to the Hanafi school, is prayed just like Maghrib with the following exceptions:

1. You recite a surah after the Fatiha in the third rak`ah.
2. You read a du'a called "qunoot" after reciting the surah in the third rak`ah.
3. You raise your hands and say "Allahu akbar" before beginning the qunoot.


Br. timbuktu said:
Quote
The correct method of sayting three rakahs of witr, for anyone, Hanafi or non-Hanafi, as is not to sit for tashaddud  in the second rakah, and to get up immediately after the second sujood of the second rakah.  Also, in the third rakah, ypu raise your hands for rafa-yadaen when you say Allahu Akbar.

Hanafis do sit for tashahhud in the second rak`ah.  There are other scholars, however, that allow one to skip that tashahhud for the witr, but not the hanafis.

As for raising the hands in the third rak`ah upon saying "Allahu akbar," this applies to the "Allahu akbar" said before beginning the "qunoot," not the "Allahu akbar" that is said upon getting up from sujud.


Sr. Fozia said:
Quote
But second rakah one gets up immediately after the second sujood right???

No.  According to the Hanafi school, you sit for tashahhud.


Sr. Muslimah said:
Quote
Is there anywhere we can find out for sure what the correct way to pray thw Witr is? And is this backed up by anything?

The fact of the matter is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed witr in different ways.  Based on this, the different schools of thought have adopted different methods of witr as the preferred way.  It would be too lengthy to go into a detailed analysis of what the different methods are, and the evidences for each.  They are all found in books of fiqh and hadith.


Sr. JustOne said:
Quote
The hadith supporting the no-tashaddud thing is as follows:

The evidence for the rule that the three Rakah of Witr should not be similar to the Maghrib prayer is the Hadith reported by Imam al-Hakim in his book named al-Mustadrak and Imam Ibn Hibban in his Book Sahih Ibn Hibban that the Prophet said: "Do not perform three Rakah of Witr resembling to the Maghrib prayer. But you can perform five, seven or eleven Rakah of Witr or more".

The above hadith does not, in any way, prove that there should be no fist tashahhud in witr.  All it says is that the witr should not resemble the Maghrib prayer.  The Hanafi witr contains at least three things that make it different from the Maghrib prayer, as I have already pointed out above in response to Sr. JustOne's first quote.


Sr. JustOne also said:
Quote
So as per the hanafi fiqh, just start getting up after the second sujood in the second rakah.  Or, break up your witr salah into the 2+1 style.

Neither of these two ways would fulfill the proper way of performing witr according to the Hanafi school.  It would be fine according to some other schools, but not the Hanafi school.


Sr. blackrose said:
Quote
ok do the imams not know this? Because I asked my husband what they do in witr in congregation (I haven t went yet) and he said they do sit down at the second rakat and then get back up.
And then he reminded me that in the old masjid we did the same.

This is the correct way to perform witr according to the Hanafi school.


Br. timbuktu said:
Quote
Apparently since rafa yadein when standing up for the third rakah is not parcticed in hanafi fiqh for the maghrib prayers, they consider rafa yadein in witr as sufficient of a difference.

That is one difference.  There are two more, as I mentioned at the beginning of my post.


Br. timbuktu also said:
Quote
There is a short interval after the second rakah when one sits, enough for every joint to be in place, and then one gets up. This is for all prayers, not just witr.

What you are referring to here is called al-jalsa al-istiraha (the sitting of rest), that one performs before going from the position of prostration (sujud) to standing (qiyam) in the odd rak`ahs.  This is a sunnah according to some schools, but not so according to the Hanafi school.  In the Hanafi school, one goes straight from prostration to standing, without any sitting, in those rak`ahs that do not contain tashahhud.


Sr. JustOne said:
Quote
They do witr in congregation in Makkah, but they don't do 3 consecutive rakahs.  They do 2, say their salaams, and then do 1 separately.

Please remember that the imams in Makkah primarily follow the Hanbali school in their prayers.  So the method that you have seen is the Hanbali method of performing witr, not the Hanafi method.


Br. Abdurrahman said:
Quote
He did not pray it like Maghrib, with two tashahhuds and one salaam.

Although this is the opinion of the majority of scholars, it is not the Hanafi position as I have already pointed out above.  The Hanafi school maintains that the proper way to do witr is to do it with two tashahhuds and one salaam.  Their evidences may be found in their books of fiqh.


Br. Abdurrahman also said:
Quote
Rather he forbade doing that, and said: “Do not pray Witr with three rak’ahs like Maghrib.”

The Hanafi witr is not like the three rak`ahs of Maghrib.  It differs from Maghrib in at least three ways, as I pointed out in my response to JustOne's first quote.


Sr. Fozia said:
Quote
Right so our local masjid prays witr with two tashahhuds, and all the instruction books I have regarding salat instruct the same method.

When did you all discover this was wrong who told you?

Hopefully it should be clear now that it is not wrong to pray witr with two tashahhuds.  It is, in fact, the way to pray witr according to the Hanafi school.


Sr. tq said:
Quote
Our Imam also pray witr with two tashahuds. I am thinking that there must be different ways to perform witr since all the hanafi Imams couldnt be wrong . The difference between maghrib and witr is dua Qunoot ?

Bingo.


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« Reply #17 on: Sep 03, 2008 09:58 PM »

Asslamo Alaykum,

I  just want to thank br. al. Azhari for clearing up this thing with the Witr prayer.  Since I read it last night I have been worried that throughout the years I have been praying it in the wrong way and that my salaat may not have been accepted because of this.  (Allah knows best)

I was just getting round to speaking with the family members and letting them know that we have all been praying wrong, so Jazakallah br for helping us to understand this further.


Walaikum Salaam
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 03, 2008 10:21 PM »

salam

Br al-Azhari, thank you that makes so much more sense to me. I felt I was going abit crazy there.

I know there are different schools of thought and there are slightly different ways to pray, but I was seriously upset at the thought I'd been taught wrong and everyone around me was practicing incorrectly, even the learned people!!!




Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 03, 2008 10:22 PM »

That is really interesting, and very confusing.  
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« Reply #20 on: Sep 03, 2008 10:43 PM »

salam

How so Sr JO?

I've been aware for years that different schools of thought pray salat a leetle differently from one another, like during tushhahud some do the flicky thing with the finger whereas hanafi hold their right index finger still, some people stand foot to foot (always makes me jump, when some sister does this without warning), then some raise their hands up and say allahu akbar after ruku etc, very interesting.

But jolly glad I wasnt taught wrongly and that I wont have to go round my entire neighbourhood telling everyone  theyre wrong!!!


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 04, 2008 01:33 AM »

Yeah... I know of the fiqh-y differences in prayer.  I'm very confused because I used to pray witr the "hanafi" way, until I took a hanafi fiqh workshop on prayer (albeit, the class was NOT taught by a scholar, but rather the student of a scholar), and he told us of the "common misconception".

Anyway, I'm not going to comment further.  I am not a scholar, and have no authority whatsoever.

Happy praying Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 04, 2008 05:35 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum  bro

Quote
Br al-Azhari, thank you that makes so much more sense to me.

And I do have to add I don't think I've ever seen so many quotes in a post before  bro [Must be a Madina record  Wink]

Very well written and very well explained!

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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