// Why will there be more women in Hell than men?
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Author Topic: Why will there be more women in Hell than men?  (Read 10354 times)
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hajra
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« on: Sep 03, 2008 07:24 PM »


Why will there be more women in Hell than men?

Praise be to Allaah.

It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)


With regard to the reason for that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about it and he explained the reason.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allaah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1052)

It was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said:

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to the Musalla on the day of Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr. He passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give charity, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.’ They asked, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, what is deficient in our intelligence and religious commitment?’ He said, ‘Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.’”


(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304)

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah said: “I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He started with the prayer before the khutbah, with no adhaan or iqaamah. Then he stood up, leaning on Bilaal, speaking of fear of Allaah (taqwa) and urging us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them. Then he said, ‘Give in charity, for you are the majority of the fuel of Hell. A woman with dark cheeks stood up in the midst of the women and said, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He said, ‘Because you complain too much and are ungrateful to your husbands.’ Then they started to give their jewellery in charity, throwing their earrings and rings into Bilaal’s cloak.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 885)


Our believing sisters who learn of this hadeeth should behave like those Sahaabiyaat who, when they learned of this, did good deeds which would be the means, by Allaah’s leave, of keeping them far away from being included in that majority of the inhabitants of Hell.

So our advice to the sisters is to strive to adhere to the rituals and obligatory duties of Islam, especially prayer, and to keep away from that which Allaah has forbidden, especially shirk in its many forms which are widespread among women, such as seeking one's needs from someone other than Allaah, going to practitioners of witchcraft and fortune-tellers, etc.

We ask Allaah to keep us and all our brothers and sisters far away from the Fire and the words and deeds that bring one close to it.


source:http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21457/women

Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to say: "O Allah, I seek refuge in Thee from four things: Knowledge which does not profit, a heart which is not submissive, a soul which has an insatiable appetite, and a supplication which is not heard."
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 05, 2008 06:56 PM »

Cuz they heard all the interesting people would be there.
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 01, 2008 01:51 AM »

the hadith is fabricated.

i gave a proof of this many times on this board before....

essentially it comes down to the fact the prophet as a normal human with normal eyesight could not have distinguished between the number of males and females in hell since the vast majority of inhabitants in hell are nonmuslim (presumably) who are evenly spread between 50% male and 50% female.

muslims only justify this hadith by saying that the world population is like 70% female, which is patently false....

cheese
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 01, 2008 10:25 AM »

So who do we believe the Prophet of God saw, or Lucid’s Logic?

Both Bukhari and Muslim are sahih, and this is reported in both. So it isn’t about how trustworthy the two greatest muhaditheen are, it is about how trustworthy our Prophet saw is.

There are more women in hell than men, and the reasons are given in the Hadith. So we can reject our Prophet saw and follow Lucid instead, but then we will be one of the rejecters.

Or women can obey the Hadith by being grateful to their husbands and giving in charity.
Men can obey it by telling their women to be grateful, telling them to give charity.
This Hadith is especially relevant today, when it is now extremely fashionable for women to be ungrateful to their husbands. It is extremely unfashionable for men to tell women what to do, or criticise women for going against Islam. Feminists look down on women who are grateful and applaud the ungrateful ones. Today people are trying to invent new kinds of westernised Islam where Kula is a lot easier to obtain, to help ungrateful women leave their husbands.
Do you want to know why hell is full of women?
It has nothing to do with percentages and everything to do with ungratefulness.
Faizah
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 01, 2008 12:39 PM »

There is a huge difference between being ungrateful and asserting one's rights and as such these days the issue is more likely the failure to give women their rights than it is a woman being ungrateful yet it is perceived as ingratitude.  I mean if a man is treating his wife with kindess compassion and respect and giving her her rights then why would a woman be ungrateful?  If she made her choice of who to marry knowing that a man couldn't give her everything then she would have no one to blame and therefore no need to be ungrateful (perhaps angry with herself for her choice).  Women who are unmarried cannot be ungrateful to a man for what he does because there isn't a man around to do anything.

In the days of the Prophet (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) it seems that men at least fully understood their obligations and sought to fulfill them; does the same hold true today?  Are men working and getting married and providing for their families or are they expecting their wives to contribute financially to the family while he controls the money and she still handles everything else while he sits idle barking commands?  Are men striving to adhere to the tenants of Islam or are they just forcing women to do so when they themselves do as they please? 

Islam gave women autonomy so it can be said to be the original feminist movement however that doesn't mean that it says that women didn't require men in their lives. This realization came into being when it was revealed that some men opted to abandon their familes or never establish them but women still had to survive on their own.

It could be said that men are ungrateful when they have high superficial expectations of what women should be or establish that only a certain group of women are deemed desireable and so they reject all others.  So in this instance are men doing what they should do which is to marry? 

On the point of making kula easier to obtain; why should it be hard for a woman to escape an unhappy (possibly even hostile) marriage?  Should she suffer and completely alter her personality in order to create harmony when the fault may not be hers and therefore not hers to control?  Women need to have a valid reason yet someone else determines what is valid whereas a man can divorce a woman for non-reasons and is not questionned; could that also not be considered ungratefullness on a man's part?

So it is important to examine what is going on today before simply saying that today it is fashionable for [married] women to be ungrateful to their husbands.

Fa'izah

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« Reply #5 on: Oct 01, 2008 01:58 PM »

everybody knows that it is the men who are usually the most ungrateful.  men expect women to have a gaggle of children, act like their obedient subjects, and often help provide for the family. 

women have always done more for the family than men.  they worked in the fields, tended the children and mentored  them and looked after the household (cooked/cleaned, etc.).  men think just because they earned money and could do the physically intensive things that they should be tended to; that women should be grateful to them...etc.

the vast majority of muslim men are distant fathers, ignore their wives except when they want their company, and have nothing to do but drink tea in the cafe during the offseason (non-harvesting season), etc...

cheese, which universe do you live in?Huh?  people like you (in the unlikely case that you are not a MI6/MI5 or CIA spy) have yet to accept that women deserve their due human rights.

cheese
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 01, 2008 11:43 PM »

"cheese, which universe do you live in"

I live in the universe where our Prophet pbh is considered trustworthy.
It isn’t me who you are arguing with it is him. The Hadith you attack are what he said, not what I said.
I believe each and every word of his is the truth, including his words that are disliked by Feminists, atheists, Western Kaffir and you lucid.

I find it strange that you keep using CIA and MI6 as a slogan against me, when you are calling for their beliefs at each and every opportunity. Who wants us to reject our Prophet’s pbh teachings above western concepts of feminism?

Jannah, is it allowed in the constitution to attack Sahih sayings of the Prophet pbh, to attack the trustworthiness of the two most authentic books after the Quran?
UmmWafi
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 02, 2008 05:06 AM »

Salam

This is prolly why I dont fancy cut and paste stuffs..it leads to so many misleading debates. Im not sure whats the sister's intention in posting this but I think reading the responses, should a non-Muslim read this, it isnt going to help our cause much. I mean we already have the non-Muslims saying Islam subjugate women. We dont really have to give them unintended weapon to sling at us more. And unexplained hadiths like the above is not just a weapon, its an arsenal of weapons.

Just my 2-cents worth. Not much considering the financial market Smiley

Wassalam
cheese
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 02, 2008 09:12 AM »

Just think about what you are saying.
These are Hadith.
This is what our Prophet pbh has said.
Don't be ashamed of your Islam.
I am not concerned about not Muslims finding out about what is in the Quran or what our Prophet pbh has said, I am more concerned about them finding out about what you have said.


Lucid are you a Quran Alone?
hajra
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 02, 2008 10:01 AM »

Assalamalaikum...
eid mubarak to all...
Quote
Im not sure whats the sister's intention in posting this
well sister my only intention in posting these hadith was to make women alert about what is given in sahih hadiths.
i wud like to post few more hadiths here...

The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) 
Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 142
It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Tahir with this chain of transmitters.


Obligatory Charity Tax (Zakat) 
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 24 :: Hadith 541
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri

On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray." Then he left. And when he reached his house, Zainab, the wife of Ibn Masud, came and asked permission to enter It was said, "O Allah's Apostle! It is Zainab." He asked, 'Which Zainab?" The reply was that she was the wife of Ibn Mas'ub. He said, "Yes, allow her to enter." And she was admitted. Then she said, "O Prophet of Allah! Today you ordered people to give alms and I had an ornament and intended to give it as alms, but Ibn Masud said that he and his children deserved it more than anybody else." The Prophet replied, "Ibn Masud had spoken the truth. Your husband and your children had more right to it than anybody else."


Belief 
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 28
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."



Quote
This is prolly why I dont fancy cut and paste stuffs..it leads to so many misleading debates.

n i have cut and pasted this stuff..hadiths from SAHIH HADITHS and just because for this reason...
Quote
Prophet Muhammad (Peace n Blessings of Allah be Upon Him) said,"Convey (my teachings) to the people even if it were a single sentence.... .
(Saheeh Bukhaari, Book of Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Hadith Number 667)

jazakallahu

Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to say: "O Allah, I seek refuge in Thee from four things: Knowledge which does not profit, a heart which is not submissive, a soul which has an insatiable appetite, and a supplication which is not heard."
Faizah
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 02, 2008 12:55 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

There is nothing wrong with posting "reminders" as we all need them from time to time - both men and women.  However there does seem to be a perpetual trend towards offering these "reminders" to only women as if it is only women that have "issues" that need correcting and these "reminders" are offered by both men and women (sometimes as the urging of men).  I've also noticed that any of the writings will focus on the "bad" that women do that will get them into the hellfire but rarely mention the "good" that will get them into paradise; again as i women are fundamentally "bad"; but how can that be since we are as Allah designed?

As I mentioned in my previous post - there is a difference between being ungrateful and asserting one's rights and the two should not be confused nor clumped into the same negative category of ingratitude.  Let us also be clear that men don't have  a "lock" on always being right and doing right.  I once found a magnet that has a saying that speaks volumes:  "My husband and I divorced for religious reasons.  He thought he was God and I didn't".  Now before anyone gives me a "reading" or a "reminder" the point behind that magnet got to the heart of just why I got out of that marriage; no man is God and as such I shall not "cow tow" nor "worship" one.  He thought he could refuse to work and earn money while I did and yet sit on the couch and make demands; he thought he could drive my car and wreck it and I'd be calm about it; he thought he could dump his child from a former relationship onto me and not do anything to help (I was raising my own 3 at the time); he thought he could drive the mother of that child around in my car and me not "catch a case"; he thought he could blame me for his older daughter trying to take her life even though I had never met this child (although had spoken to her on the phone which is more than he ever did) and I wasn't going to "give him a piece of my mind).  I could write a book on such things and yet he had the nerve to tell me that I was wrong.

The "reminder" here also speaks about how women should give in charity yet are we not told that even caring for our families is charity?  I know of no woman that would not willingly cook or buy food for another person in need; I know of no woman that won't provide clothing to another mother for that mother's children; I know of no mother that won't step in and speak up when she sees another's child (with or without her own) doing something they should not be doing/saying something they should not be saying.  All of these things are a form of charity because none of them are obligatory but are done from the kindness/compassion of one's heart.

So to go back; posting reminders is fine but there must be balance in order to prevent chaos.

Fa'izah

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« Reply #11 on: Oct 02, 2008 02:27 PM »

sister hajarah,

the hadith you quoted are very highly to be fabricated.  Please note that

(1) it talks about women not giving in charity.  however at that time men controlled virtually all the household wealth.  men were obligated to pay zakah, etc.   Jewelery was the only thing women possessed of value

(2) the hadith is classic misogynism -- the same type of thing is found in all misogynistic literature.  it looks so much like misogynism transplanted by malicious men into an islamic context

The thing we all ask is, ok, sure it sounds fishy.  But it is sahih.  Now what?  Were Imam Bukhari and Muslim so mislead to committ grevious errors like this?  All i can say is that misogynism was the norm; even today among muslims, women's inferiority is embraced by very educated and modern muslim men.  It is likely that these great muhadditheen were influenced passively by these notions and did not throw out such hadith which defied logic, as they would normlly throw out any other hadith which defied logic.

Finally,  if it is true that women are particularly biased to sin, ungratefulness, lack of charity, then it would imply that God did not create men and women spiritually equal.   But this is one of cornerstones of our faith, and I would rather stand by this idea than the very disturbing notion that women are spiritually inferior to men.

Finally, finally, recall the Prophet's last sermon.  His words are recorded in hadith that we know for sure are sahih because of the nnnumerous chains of narration (lots of people heard the prophet speak and hadith are mutawattir).  If women were so predispossessed to evil, he would have explicitly warned women to be grateful, be charitable, etc...because women are the bedrock of families and children inherit the values taught by women...

However, not only did he not explicitly warn women -- he explicitly warned men about abusive, misogynist treatment of women.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

This is so beautiful, and because it is mutawattir, we know for sure this IS ISLAM!  This is what allows to brush aside those strange supposedly sahih hadith stating that it is men who need protection from women because they are ungrateful, uncharitable, etc...

I love islam because it is at its core it is sooo very beautiful, so right, and makes so much sense.  The strange hadith asserting the contrary (regarding the faults of women, etc) are but a trifle when we fundamentally accept the core beliefs of what islam is, and what it is all about...

 
um aboodi
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 02, 2008 07:23 PM »

salam

Without reading all replies in this thread, yet getting the gist of the discussion, I have a single comment.

These kind of discussions are exactly what the enemies of Islam would want us to engage in.  These discussions are not going to lead to anything of value to muslims. These discussions are what is called in Arabic "mira'a", and they divide us rather than unite us.  There are more important things worthy of our time. 

We have to focus on one thing. Islam is a message of mercy to human kind and is women-friendly.

wassalam
cheese
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 03, 2008 10:05 PM »

I can’t believe this?
Am I the only Sunni here?
Our most sacred texts are being attacked, and everyone is silent. The moderator isn’t even banning.
I seriously can’t believe this.

These people who are being attacked as fabricators of Hadith are the same people who preserved the Quran.
Belief in the Quran and belief in the Sunnah are one and the same. Because both were revealed to the same Prophet pbh and both were transmitted through the same Sahaba. To deny one is to deny both.


“the hadith you quoted are very highly to be fabricated.  Please note that”

Lucid since when did you become a Muhadith? I have a relative who died who was one, and it takes a lifetime of study. How many years of study have you completed, anywhere near a lifetime?
What do you know of the isnad of these Hadith? How about ilm ul Rejal, and how it relates to the individual links of this Hadith? Did you even consider the trust worthiness of the transmitters?
Who are you accusing of being the liar who fabricated the Hadith? Is it Hazret Abdullah bin Umar ra who said he heard it from our Prophet?

“  however at that time men controlled virtually all the household wealth”

This is a lie based on your own ignorance. Women in both pre-Islamic and post Islamic Arabia did take part in trade and this is well recorded in the books of Hadith which you are trying to belittle.
Umm ul muminin Khadija ra was a rich business woman in pre-Islamic Arabia. The wife of Abu Harayra was a rich business woman in post Islamic Arabia, and she employed him before she married him. These are just two examples, if you want more start studying Hadith before you declare yourself a Muhadith by declaring the most authentic Hadith in the most authentic books of Hadith as Fabricated.

“ the hadith is classic misogynism
This feminist slogan of misogynism and your definition of it don’t make a Hadith fabricated. Hadith are fabricated if someone made them up.
Our Prophet really did say these things, and the people who heard it were the Sahaba, the people who recorded it were the greatest, most diligent and trustworthy hadith collectors.
So who is it you are accusing of Misogynism, Allah for placing more women in Hell? Or the Prophet pbh for revealing that Allah has placed more women in hell? The Sahaba for hearing the Prophet say that and repeating it? Bukhari and Muslim for recording it in their most authentic Hadith collections?
Who are you accusing of Fabricating? Just encase you are about to accuse me, I wasn’t born at the time!


“It is likely that these great muhadditheen were influenced passively by these notions and did not throw out such hadith which defied logic, as they would normlly throw out any other hadith which defied logic.”

Hadith collectors didn’t throw out Hadith on whether or not they agreed with your logic or anyone else’s logic for that matter. Hadith collectors relied on the trustworthiness of the chain of transmission to determine which hadith were genuine and which were fabricated.
The people who used Logic to pick and choose Hadith were people who were influenced by logic such as that developed in Egypt, Greece, Persia and India. These people belonged to deviant sects like the Mutazillah and the Jabriya. These two deviant sects are dead now. But we have a new bunch that has just come in to existence, this new bunch are influenced by the logic of feminists, capitalists, communists and socialists. They follow democracy, humanism, secularism and other man made ways of life to pick and choose which sayings of our Prophet pbh they will follow and which they will reject.
These modern Mutazillah and Jabriya will fail just as their predecessors did.


“if it is true that women are particularly biased to sin”
So accordingly for one sex not to be more inclined towards evil, the number of men in hell must equal the number of women?
Do you believe in some kind of quota system, at the doors of hell?
I don’t know where you get your logic from, but it doesn’t seem very logical?

What is so illogical about hell is not split 50-50 between men and women and women having the majority? And a major reason is being ingratitude to their husbands?
Women who read this can agree with lucid that these Authentic Hadith are fabricated even though they were reported by some of the greatest companions of the Prophet and recorded by the two most trustworthy Hadith collectors. Or act according to it: showing gratitude and giving in charity.
Which is better? Which will you do?
I know what the feminists want you to believe and want you to do. So what do you want to do?
 

“ he would have explicitly warned women to be grateful, be charitable”
He pbh did warn women, in many hadith, but you reject them.

 
“However, not only did he not explicitly warn women “-
He did warn women explicitly, look at all those hadith you reject. How many warnings is enough to convince you?


“O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. “

And lucid rejects the Hadith which states the rights men have over women, rights like gratefulness.

“ It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve,”

Lucid are you sure you don’t want to reject this line you quoted?


“I love islam because it is at its core it is sooo very beautiful, so right, and makes so much sense.  “
I believe in Islam because it is the truth. I believe in what my weak feeble mind finds logical and what my weak feeble mind finds illogical.
Is you obedience to Allah and the Prophet of Allah restricted to those commandments you find logical.
Remembering Shaytan found it illogical to bow to Adam even though Allah had ordered it?

Unlike every other religion, Islam is only from Allah.
With Christianity and Judaism they removed what Allah revealed that they didn’t like, that they found illogical.
This hasn’t happened to Islam. So those Hadith you call “The strange hadith asserting the contrary “ will remain in Islam. Islam is made by Allah, and not you lucid. So let those who worship Allah follow his Prophet pbh and let those who worship Lucid follow him.

-- ---

UN
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 04, 2008 12:07 PM »

Why will there be more women in Hell than men?

It seems you werenot able to understand the simple english translation of the Hadith. Do a favour get enrolled in some primary english teaching institute where kids are taught.

No one will be in hell but they deserve that. Donot consider yourself to be more Just, more Merciful, more Logical than Allah (nouzbillah) watch your deeds lets in thought about others you fall in ditch of hell.

Hey Lucid (are you muslim atleast name doesnot reflect) you have a great Job opportunity in Turney they have a project in hand wherein they are "Pick and Choose"-ing Hadith to suit their wishes and wishes of their western and jewish masters they will whole heartedly embrace you in there.

Salam cheese, slander mongers will get what they deserve. And continue defending Quran and Hadith.
Holy Quran 9:79 79. Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labour,- and throw ridicule on them,- Allah will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty.
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 04, 2008 04:26 PM »

Salam

I sincerely apologise if I caused anyone any discomfort, it was never my intention in doing so.  I did not question the poster's motive rather I want to know the objective.  Inshallah, if your motive is to spread the word of the Prophet  saw, then may Allah SWT reward you accordingly.

I do not question the authenticity of the hadiths and if, like you reflected, they are taken from the books of Muslim, Inshallah, they will be sahih.  I question the methodology of cut and paste.  Sister, when you read the hadiths, I am sure you did not read just 1 or 2 and understood the totality of the knowledge contain therein. I am sure you have conducted your own studies of the elaboration and explanation of the hadiths to deepen your understanding of the Prophetic words.  Thus, the hadiths you posted made absolute sense to you and gave you insights which, Inshallah, will help you in becoming a better Muslimah.

However, this Board is visited not just by learned people like you.  It is visited by people from all walks of life and at different stages of search-hood. Some are still learning about Islam, some come to see if they can get weapons to destroy Islam and so on and so forth. The reason I do not fancy cut-and-paste is because they are just that. You cut a hadith from somewhere and paste it here, sans explanation, elaboration and discussion. Thus, the hadith, instead of being utilised to its fullest potential is being misunderstood, and worse still, being quoted to malign Islam, 'audzubillah.

Bro Cheese

In your haste to push Islam forward, I caution you to watch out for potholes. After all, there is a quaint saying "Fools rush where angels fear to tread". I am not going to even comment on your content but I feel I must share with you my concerns regarding certain patterns I see in your posts. Please accept it as a sisterly concern, after all, Islam is a religion of naseehah no ?

Saying things like "Am I the only Sunni" or am I the only one interested in protecting Islam and such of that nature is a deep insult to the brothers and sisters in here. We may disagree on many points but we all, Inshallah, do that because of our love for Islam. NO ONE in here has a monopoly on truth, which is why we share, we argue and we debate. Because we want to EXPLORE not to CONDEMN.

In wanting to promote the words of Rasul, we must also try to adopt the manners of Rasul in disseminating the knowledge. And he, as reflected in hundreds, if not thousands, of hadiths, has always adopted patience, mercy, softness and tolerance as his modus operandus subhanallah.

Allahu'alim.

I remind myself with these words I wrote above more than I meant it for anyone else.

In this blessed month of Syawal, I sincerely hope we all move towards a more loving and peaceful relationship within our community. Otherwise we cannot expect more from others.  My sincere apologies again if I have offended.

Wassalam
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 04, 2008 05:39 PM »

"Am I the only Sunni" with a question mark at the end does not mean “I am the only Sunni here” which would have been an insult. I’m surprised you took it as an insult, none was intended.
What you wrote about my previous post and people without knowledge reading this thread is why I HAD TO write that.
If others didn’t state the fact that all Muslims believe in those Hadith and the Authenticity of Bukahri and Muslim, people would assume it is me (the extremist) who believes in those Hadith and Lucid(the moderate majority) don’t believe our most reliable books of Hadith are reliable.
But that isn’t the case; all Muslims believe in those Hadith, there isn’t any difference of opinion on this issue.
Bukhari is the main source of Islam after the Quran, and Muslim the student of Bukhari was even more diligent than his teacher when it came to compiling his Sahi.
There is no difference about the reliability of these people, and even Shia use Hadith from their books.
This is a trend that has to be challenged.
Undisputed Islamic beliefs are being labelled as fringe extremist beliefs, while new ideas that have just been fabricated and never heard of in the history of Islam including among deviant sects like the Mutazilla and Jubriya are being labelled the beliefs of the silent majority.
And if the majority remain silent on such fundamental issues as the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim, how would people know that it isn’t just extremists like me who believe in the Sunnah?

Giving people a weapon to attack Islam was mentioned by you. And if you want know what they are using, go have a look at their WebPages.
They can’t attack the authenticity of the Quran, they can’t even come near to attacking it. The fact that it is clearly and completely from Allah is plain and clear to all the enemies of Allah as well as those who claim ignorance. So the enemies state, “lets go for the underbelly”, they attack the Sunnah, thinking if they disprove its authenticity they can imply the authenticity of the Quran isn’t clear as it was compiled by the same people. But they cant because if they use the Criterion used by the Hadith collectors on their own Bible, the whole book would instantly be declared, fabricated.
So what do they use? They use attacks on Hadith by people claiming to be Muslims to state, “Look, even Muslims say these are unreliable”.
Lucid called Sahi Hadith fabricated. That is the tool; it implies that there is a difference on this issue. How are readers to know that Lucid isn’t some kind of famous Muhadith with skills and knowledge greater than Bukhari and Muslim?
How are they to know it isn’t just the mumblings of some one who is infatuated by America and all the logic that emanates from it?
If no one else posted that the Hadith were true, and Bukari and Muslim were definitely authentic, how would outside readers know that it wasn’t just my (extremist) opinion that believes in the Sunnah? Especially since he wasn’t banned as soon as he stated that those clearly authentic Hadith were fabricated, implying what he wrote wasn’t lunacy but an acceptable difference within Islam.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 04, 2008 10:52 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


I don't think anyone should be blamed for propagating knowledge, especially if it is backed up by authentic narrations.  Since when is repeating the words of the Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah, to be condemned?

Soon, you will have people saying, don't quote words from the Quran.  They will ban posting verses of the Quran.


Rather, I believe the problem is that people who slander the Sunnah and that which is agreed upon by Ijmaa', universal consensus of the Muslim scholars, such as the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim, as stated by Shah Wali Allah, are given freedom to post and spread their misguided views.  They are the ones who aught to be condemned.  Ignoring them is ignoring the source of the problem.

Anyway, making hukm on a hadith is no easy task.  There are perhaps only a handful of people on earth who are trusted in this science, and whose opinions are accepted.  Shaykh Muhammad mentioned that he entered the Masjid one day, and found a young man laying on the ground with some books in front of him.  He said he was pleased, to see the youth studying.

Shaykh Muhammad:  What are you doing?
Boy:  Making Takhreej of this hadith.
Sh Muhammad:  Why? Sh. Albaani said it is Saheeh.  Why waste your time?
Boy:  Sh. Albaani was mutasaahil in hadith (ie. too lenient).
Sh Muhammad, getting angered:  Recite Surah Mutaffifeen.
Boy:  Uh..oh..ah..(He couldn't recite it properly)


Sh. Muhammad was very upset that people who barely have hair growing on their chins are arguing with the greatest scholars of our age.  May Allah guide us.




And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 05, 2008 02:48 AM »

salam

cheese CHILL OUT!  just read the hadith , just quoting as is naturallly can offend someone. its a sensitive issue. Especially if person does not have much knowledge about islam like a nonmuslim. And if some stuff do not make sense its natural for a human being to question it. Read the Qur'an it tells us to think and use our brain. Like Ive said before some things are just not that clear cut and these are not the actual hadith, these are translations

Allah swt knows best
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 05, 2008 03:04 AM »

Salam

Bro Cheese, Bro Abdurahman

Obviously there is much that I didnt know and since my knowledge is limited I certainly should refrain from making comments.

My apologies for the arrogance.

Wassalam
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 05, 2008 03:28 AM »

salaam

Let me tell you why sayings like that are hard to stomach. Just look at the world around you. All over the world woman do not recieve their rights, are being oppressed in some way or another. Now who is doing this? their other half, the 'men'
And again look at the world around you. Who are the ones that killing innocent people including children, who are the killers, rapists, murders, torturers, gamblers, alcoholics, They are all mostly male. Im in no way saying that all 'men' are like that or I dont like 'men' but what Im saying is that its very hard to stomach that 'majority' of woman are in hell when men are and have been doing alot more bad and its because they are not 'grateful' enough when there are lot serious and worse crimes being done by the male species.

that aside if the prophet pbuh really did say that then its true. only Allah swt knows.
now cheese dont go on about the arguement that its 'sahih' so he realy did say that .. bc I dont buy it. Plus again we are not in the position to interpret the hadith..
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 05, 2008 04:33 AM »

umm wafi,

why are you apologizing? 

we don't have a priesthood in islam.  we don't have ministers or a pope who can only interpret the faith for us.  that is one of the principal virtues of islam. normal people are allowed to have an opinion and voice their common sense reactions.

people like abdur rahman and cheese would like us to believe that what the great scholars of islam have said is set in stone, that we are mere minions, too stupid and insignificant to say anything of value.  that is of course preposterous. 

it is sad, but muslims have gotten to the point where they are reprimanded at every point in life -- that they MUST obey the opinions of the elderly and religious authorities when making any decision in life or thinking about any issue.  this is ridiculous.  anybody who has practiced islam and is sincere has a right to state a thesis and argument....and it turns it out many of these people actually know quite a lot.

scholars are extremely important and  we always seek their advice and opinion; it would be extremely foolish not to.  but that doesn't mean we are not allowed to voice our common sense opinions.  and the real point is that...real scholars...who you can really trust are extremely few and far between in today's times...

btw:  sheikhs cheese and friends...just what are your scholarly credentials, since you are so intent on forcing your opinions down our throats??
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 05, 2008 08:15 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum  bro

I hope everyone is well now that those Shayateen have been let loose again!!

I just wanted to make a couple of points on this thread:



Just to reiterate what has been said above, the 3 main sources of Islamic Law are the Qur’an, the Sunnah and Ijmaa [consensus of Muslim jurists].


If all Muslim scholars agree upon something (such as the validity of Bukhari & Muslim) then that is sufficient evidence in itself in addition to other evidence which support it.


Br lucid, I remember when you posted this opinion of yours the first time on this board and I’m sure you, yourself, remember the reaction you received then.


My sincere advice would be to go and search for a scholar who is learned in this particular hadith and ask him all the relevant questions you want to and all the difficulties you have with it and listen to his answers.


I remember when I was having trouble understanding the hadith, where it is said that 999 out of 1,000 on the Day of Judgement will be thrown into the Fire, until someone knowledgeable cleared it up for me.



But I do find myself agreeing with Sr UmmWafi when she states that certain aspects of our deen are intricate and quite difficult for the masses to comprehend. In such cases, it is imperative that these issues are explained clearly by our scholars so the masses are not left in any doubt or suspicion.



This brings me to my final point and the way we interact with each other in moments of disagreement.


It is said that when he was involved in a debate with an opponent, Imam Shafi would always make du’a to Allah that the truth would manifest on the tongue of his opponent.


Bottom line, what’s important in this short life of ours is not if I’m right and you’re wrong or vice versa but that the Truth is clear from the Falsehood. Moreover, we are all believers and brothers in Islam and should desire for each other what we desire for ourselves.


If that is so, why are we as Muslims always so ready to criticize/blame//humiliate someone instead of trying to help them and show them the error of their ways?


How many of us at one time in our lives found ourselves wandering about in darkness and were grateful that someone took the time and effort to show us our shortcomings?



"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!


And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune."

[41:34]



As an Ummah, we have to learn to be patient with each other. It’s not easy by any means, but as the above verse says being granted such goodness is something which we should strive for especially after coming out of the month of Ramadhan.


So next time you post, say salam to one another, greet one another, respect one another and ultimately if you end up disagreeing with each other, leave each other on terms of nobility and not discord.


Please forgive me if I have offended anyone with this post, my intention was merely to try and unite our hearts.


And Allah knows best.

Wasalaam
BrKhalid

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 05, 2008 02:58 PM »

Quote
I remember when I was having trouble understanding the hadith, where it is said that 999 out of 1,000 on the Day of Judgement will be thrown into the Fire, until someone knowledgeable cleared it up for me.

Brother, could you clear that one up for me?  What did the knowledgeable person say about that hadith?

Sorry if I'm changing the topic...  Just curious ('cause that's a really scary statistic..)
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 05, 2008 09:45 PM »

Asalamaulaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah,


May Allah reward you Br. Khalid for your inspiring words.  You are right, a sick person needs to refer to a learned Doctor, to learn how to get better.  Sometimes, even an ordinary physician is not sufficient, so they need to go to a Specialist, a skilled surgeon, who has attained the relevent knowledge and skill, from teachers who are experts in the field. Would you go to have heart surgery, or brain surgery, with someone who knows nothing about the field?  Worse yet, would you do the surgery yourself?  Only a fool.  The wise person will look for those of knowledge, to attain the best healing.

Likewise, it is only an ignorant person who says, "I am smarter than all the ulema in the world.  I will interpret the religion according to my own whims and desires."  Actually, this type of arrogance is what caused the Shaitan to be cursed for eternity; he believed in Allah, but was arrogant against His command to humble himself to Adam.


We live in an age of respect for specialization in all fields of knowledge, except the Shariah.  Every individual thinks he owns the right to interpret the religion for himself, ignoring 15 centuries of scholarship.  May Allah guide us to follow the Ulema, who are the rightful heirs of the Prophets.


Here is what one of the specialists in this field, who spent his life studying Shariah, the noble Shaikh Muhammad Salih Munajjid has stated:


Why are there more women in hell than men?


Praise be to Allaah.   

It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)

With regard to the reason for that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about it and he explained the reason.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allaah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1052)

It was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said: 

“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to the Musalla on the day of Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr. He passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give charity, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.’ They asked, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’  He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, what is deficient in our intelligence and religious commitment?’ He said, ‘Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.’”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304)

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah said: “I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He started with the prayer before the khutbah, with no adhaan or iqaamah. Then he stood up, leaning on Bilaal, speaking of fear of Allaah (taqwa) and urging us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them. Then he said, ‘Give in charity, for you are the majority of the fuel of Hell. A woman with dark cheeks stood up in the midst of the women and said, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He said, ‘Because you complain too much and are ungrateful to your husbands.’ Then they started to give their jewellery in charity, throwing their earrings and rings into Bilaal’s cloak.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 885)

Our believing sisters who learn of this hadeeth should behave like those Sahaabiyaat who, when they learned of this, did good deeds which would be the means, by Allaah’s leave, of keeping them far away from being included in that majority of the inhabitants of Hell.

So our advice to the sisters is to strive to adhere to the rituals and obligatory duties of Islam, especially prayer, and to keep away from that which Allaah has forbidden, especially shirk in its many forms which are widespread among women, such as seeking one's needs from someone other than Allaah, going to practitioners of witchcraft and fortune-tellers, etc.

 We ask Allaah to keep us and all our brothers and sisters far away from the Fire and the words and deeds that bring one close to it.



End quote. 


Honorable sister Umm Wafi, please forgive me also.  The scholars have said that responding to the fitnah and doubts created by the enemies of Islam should be done by experts, not lay people.  Perhaps this is what you meant?  However, this should not prevent us from propagating beneficial and usefull information, even if from another source.  In fact this type of propagation is the habit of the Ulema, they build on the works of those before them.  The key is to avoid the doubtful matters and leave that to the experts.

This will be my last post in this thread.  I pray to Allah that He help us to make beneficial use of our time.  Ameen.



And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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