// I cannot advise this friend can you help??
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Anonymous
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« on: Oct 09, 2008 11:16 AM »


Salam guys,

a friend recently asked me for advice on her marriage and I cannot think straight thus thought I would seek advice from you guys.

My friend got married in 2006-it was not a pressurised marriage however she felt isolated due to the fact her family do not marry their women into other castes. She married her cousin and from the word go their seemed to be issues which she was encouraged to ignore.

The wedding took place in Pakistan where her husband is from. On the second night of their marriage her husband stayed out until 4am. He then did the same on their Walima. He said that is was the culture to do so (to stay out all night). My friend (from my knowledge) hasn't seen much of Pakistan and asked her husband to show her some of the sights. He told her that wasn't acceptable. The culture was different to the UK and women stayed at home. My friend returned to the UK 6 weeks after her wedding looking pale and ill. She came back deflated- not like a newly wed. However she kept everything to herself.

After her return to the UK her husband hardly dealt with her, again saying there was many cultural differences-apparently men in Pakistan don't chase their wives (although brothers, I am sure calling ones wife once or twice a week is not chasing?). When she called him he would tell her he couldn't talk because he was with friends.

My friend expressed her concerns to her family who said she took things to heart too quickly and that her husband "would change" with time.

18 months after their wedding her husband joined her in the UK.  I don't think I have to tell you but things were still the same. She worked as well as looking after their home whilst her husband found work. Even when he was at home he was unable to help his wife. His wife was diagnosed with a liver complication which caused fatigue. When she was diagnosed I volunteered to help her out with large household tasks. I wish now I hadn't. Her husband treats her like a maid (and I am married too so I know a bit about married life). When he took his socks off he expected her to quickly pick them up and put them in the laundry. If dinner was late by 5 minutes he'd start questioning her ablility of being a women. I was talking to her about her medication in the kitchen and he shouted from the room to take her a drink of water now and not stand around like a unless women. My friend looked very scared, almost crying. I asked my friend about violence and she said her husband doesn't hit her-he only says things and does things like throw things around the room.

She spoke to her mother-in-law who said her husband would get better once he found a job. This mashallah happend 3 monthss ago. But since then things have got worse. He expects his dinner on the table before he gets home which is impossible as my friend finishes work a bit after her husband. She has considered leaving her job but financially it would mean they would be going into debt every month just to pay basis bills. My friend only seeked by advice after her husband started 'lending' his friends money whilst they had bill unpaid and due soon. His wife asked him to pay the bills and he ignored her. She is now scared.

Her husbands unrealistic expectations (e.g. dinner on the table before he comes home), his wife to clean their clean house from top to bottom with fatigue (and now diabetes) and for her to be seen and not heard has sent her into a depression. On top of this the doctors have found a slight medical issue that could slow down her conceiving a baby so the doctors would like to put her onto a medical course but have said that any type of stress/depression can interfer with her treatment (and apparently stress can stress out the body thus causing problems).

She feels in a dilemma-her husband never listens to her-what she says is wrong based on her sex. His mother has spoken to him and now says its her fault he doesn't respect women as she didn't see the need to as his father is a very good man. My friend suggested going out for a day and he refused saying some of his friends might see him.

My friend is still trying to make a difference-she wears clothes, jewellery etc to please her husband. But he doesn't even register her.

On top of all his my friend recently lost her grandmother and has been silently going through bereavement. One of our best friends is currently having MRI scans as the doctors suspect that she has a brain tumour.

My friend has asked me if I think his behaviour is accepatable and should she consider separating from her husband. She says she would lose all her family if the relationship was to end.

I make dua for her everyday and she does too. It looks so bleak-can anyone offer advice? What should she do?

My friend is a firm believer that Allah never tests us beyond our own grasp but I'm now scared for my friends health.

Sister H, UK.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #1 on: Oct 09, 2008 02:32 PM »

asak
What does she want?
If she wants her husband to be 'better'- apparently it is not going to happen he (and advisers) are giving one excuse after another- and nothing was resolved after the issue was resolved.

So she has a choice- be married to the likes of him- he ain't changing- Allah swt knows best... and hope he changes.
Or be divorced with the hopes of remarrying.

My hubby had is 'teenage/college- hang out with the guys' period... which lasted about 10 years!! Undecided
In my case, i am glad I toughed it out. The last 6 years have been much better. The difference tho- is he always treated me well, with respect, and understood that I my work (Islamic in nature) was really important to me. So if he had to heat up dinner or put up with his messies... he did not complain. Also, he was always on the straight path. I am not saying it was easy or that I was happy... but it worked.

Personally, given the few details here- and she is not with child and can support herself-  say give him the ultimatum but then if her culture is tough on divorcees- be prepared to live alone. 
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #2 on: Oct 09, 2008 02:42 PM »

salam

honestly, the man does not understand what a marriage is.

her father or brother should step in and have a talk with the guy.

but it really sounds that their problems are cultural.  they lived in two different cultures.  they both have to change and meet in the middle.

Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #3 on: Oct 09, 2008 02:52 PM »

Salam
I am Pakistani, born and raised and my husband also is. The things you have described are not at all accepted in Pakistani culture - (may be there are few exceptions but that is not normal) . But generally no groom is not supposed to stay out all night specially on their wedding and Valima night, and no women do move around in and visit different cities - in some areas they might have to wear chaddor(jilab ) to blend in but women do not stay home all day long. The things he is saying and doing I am sure he wont be doing these things if would have married a girl from Pakistan because then he wont give her "culture difference thing" and he would have to deal with her family.

I am sorry I dont have any advice just prayers for her. It might be a good idea to let her family know and also to delay having children. And I kind of agree with Anon #2, a person who doesnt think he is doing wrong and doesnt want to change will not change short of miracle.

Wasalam

Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #4 on: Oct 09, 2008 03:10 PM »

W/salam,

I asked what my friend wanted and it was to be happily married. As with all sisters (sorry for generalising here) she wants to make the relationship work but as we've mentioned before, elders have just made excuses to cover for the fact this brother isn't registering his wife as one would want a brother to  Lips Sealed

She has an understanding on the way society treats divorcees as her cousin has recently gone through it and so have other family members.

Indeed I agree, these issues are cultural based. However my friend has had a fairly blended upbringing. She is a practising Muslim and tries to wear the nikab as much as possible-especially when visiting Pakistan. Her husband has family in the UK and she has offered to move closer to them for her husband but they (in-laws) have encouraged her husband to move alone for a while-which he is considering.

I do not wish to go off-topic but I feel my friends opinions are more religiously inspired rather than cultural. E.g. she wants to go on holiday but wishes to visit countries with strong Muslim history. When she previously held charity events she tried to do them in a 100% islamic environment etc. Does that make sense? I guess what I am saying is culture is playing a part, however I don't think its 100% to blame.

To my Pakistani sister (last poster) just to clarify my friend requested to go sight-seeing in the town they were in-not to another town and she wanted to go with all her family (sister in laws, mother in law etc etc).  Like a day trip in "parda" (nikaab).

As for her brother and father stepping in to have a word. Sadly she doesn't have either. Her uncles are sitting on the fence due to them being related to both parties.

Thank you for the advice given so far.

W/salam

Sister H.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #5 on: Oct 09, 2008 05:06 PM »

salam

This is my advice.

In the last part of the night, tell your friend to pray two rakat nafil salat, then tell her to ask Allah to deliver her from this test in a way that her izzat and respect remains in tact, in a way that her family and friends do not suffer, in a way that she is not left isolated or alone, in a way that she is punished for things which are beyond her control.

Tell her to raise her hands to Allah, and beg and plead for his mercy, and ask that this situation is changed so she can live her life as is lawfully her right decreed by Allah.



Whereabouts is she in the UK?


Wassalaam
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #6 on: Oct 09, 2008 05:09 PM »

salam

Is NOT arghhh punished for things beyond her control,


Wassalaam
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #7 on: Oct 09, 2008 05:15 PM »

salaam

It is too confusing with all anon.

bak to the subject Im shocked that people are excusing this as a 'cultural difference'.  Im pakistani and the culture does not say treat your wife with disrespect or order her around and leave the  night of the wedding.

This is what you call 'abuse' pure and simple. mental and emotional abuse.

ok she is feeling 'scared' she is getting 'sick' stress and depression are causes for most sicknesses.

so yes im worried about her health too, and if she stays with him you cannot expect her health to get better only worse.

and what in the world!!!! is she trying to have a baby for?Huh?  It is most selfish and harmful to have a baby in this type of situation. when she is being abused and is not happy, it is absoultely not right to put a child in this situation.

what she needs to do is call a abuse hotline and let them talk to her. they will private and will not take any action unless she wants it. they will grant her free acess too councelors, rides, all the help that she wants.
sister fozia can help if she is in the uk.

she has a job so mashAllah shes lucky, she can supoprt herself if things get bad. tell her to be strong. the family might not help her so she has to do things on her own with the help of the hotline. tell her when everything is done. she may be alot healthier and happier . and who k nows she may get married again. her family may come around also .

but she needs to take some sort of action. like start by demanding respect from her husband. if she is scared he wil lhit her she needs to call the police. this is the only way he will straighten up. after demanding some respect.. she may suggest counceling or talking to imam about her islamic rights.

aww she hs not father or brother.. thas so sad.. so her uncles will take advantage. they should be extra protective and caring then. but if the do not listen like i said she needs to be strong and take action herslef. and you need to be strong and help her and not be afraid that you are coming in between her marriage. bc islamically is your duty to come in between if there is any sort of harm being done.

my duas with her,
your sis
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #8 on: Oct 09, 2008 05:25 PM »

salam

Yep do you know what, I want to help, I will help as much as possible. I can give her phone numbers for kick ass lawyers and go with her if shes nearby, she has a roof here if she needs it. If nothing else I've been there, done that, and most certainly would not advocate bringing a child into the situation, I can sympathise and empathise, and offer practical help if she wants/needs it.....

IM me, it's Fozia.

Btw, you know the whole family thing, it may be difficult to realise this, but it's your life. Your family and friends are not living it, you are, choose the life that is easier for you to live not the one where you drive yourself to death living for your family, your family will get over a divorce, you won't recover the lost years, and do not complicate the whole thing with a child, if she died would she want to leave a child at the mercies of this person, what on earth kind of role model is this person to child?


Wasssalaam
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #9 on: Oct 09, 2008 07:24 PM »

Salam folks,

okay right, answering a few questions that have arisen.

Firstly, I meant no offence by calling this a cultural issue-by far I doubt anyone is playing the blame game. My friends husband called it a cultural difference himself.

Re: baby. Her fertility issue that is being addressed may come back worse and cause infertility. It's a hard decision and not one I actually support however I am not in this situation. Her mother is supporting her in whatever she decides to do and has even offered to look after a baby should a baby come along as my friend is close to her mother and her mother knows the situation on the fertility front.

I shall pass the information onto her.

My friends in the Midlands.

W/salam



Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #10 on: Oct 10, 2008 02:29 AM »


walaikumsalaam

no offense taken
Quote
My friends husband called it a cultural difference himself.
that is just a tactic the husband is using to excuse his behavior. myhusband did the same.
but reality is that disrespect is disliked by every human being regardless of culture. for example even if she grew up in pakistan she would not see his behavior 'normal' she would be equally hurt.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #11 on: Oct 10, 2008 09:18 AM »

salam

I'm in London (Fozia again).


With regards trying for a baby, saying that her mother will take care of a baby and the reality are two very different things, a baby is physically demanding, your friend sounds far too physically fragile to care for a child, and there will be complications with the pregnancy itself as she is diabetic.

The husband is not going to help, so tell her to sit and consider her current situation, add in sleepless nights, stitches in places the sun dont shine, and physical and mental exhaustion and then dont do it, not with this man, not how he currently is.

Has she actually asked her GP about this, I mean just the medical side of trying for a child in her current state.

The future is Allahs will, so is the present, maybe the fact she hasn't succeeded in conceiving, given her current situation is better for her.

Does she truly want to bring a child into this life, if its a girl her husbands behaviour will condition her to believe that this is a womans lot in life, if its a boy he will see his fathers behaviour and think this is the way a man behaves.

If she divorces after having children, the husband will have endless means of ruining his childs and your friends lives, he will retain control in the most important part of her life thro their child.

If shes afraid he may be violent, does your friend seriously think the danger will pass when she has had a child, it will make her more vulnerable to it, and her child too....

Leave him, thats my advice, I'd drag my daughter away from a man such as this, I dont understand parents who tell their own daughters to stay in such situations, its not like she will even be expected to be paid for, she works shes so not a liability in any way.
I dont understand, my daughters will always have a home and sanctuary with me so long as I live inshallah, how can parents sit back and watch their children suffer so cruelly and not be affected by this, I dont know her past this thread and heck she can move in with me if she wants.....


Wassalaam
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #12 on: Oct 10, 2008 12:34 PM »

tell her to fear Allah and obey her husband.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #13 on: Oct 10, 2008 04:17 PM »

tell her to fear Allah and obey her husband.

Thank you for your uneducated, useless input. May Allah guide you towards the real Islam that gives everyone rights to be happy and blessed-Ameen.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #14 on: Oct 10, 2008 04:26 PM »

Assalaamu Alaykum.

I'm almost afraid to say anything, but my real feelings are, well,...

DUMP HIS SORRY A$$!!!

There have been several topics here at the Madina about really, really bad husbands, and the woman always wants to tough it out and see if he'll change.  And everyone tells her to pray and be patient, and blah, blah....

Sisters, if you are in a bad marriage, GET OUT!!!  And I'm not talking about a marriage going thru some hard times or you and your hubby are mad at each other or your marriage didn't turn out to be some storybook, Hollywood happy-ever-after.  I'm talking bad marriage where the husband is physically or emotionally abusive.  Of if he's taking all your money (which is YOUR money) and living off of that while he spends all his money on his own entertainment, or if he's loaning all your money to his friends, etc...

In this thread, this guy sounds like a total loser.  Get ride of him.  And if your family won't back you, then get out on your own.  Nobody should have to put up with this nonsense.  And for God's sake, don't think that having a baby will fix everything.  It will just get a million times worse.

I know people are going to jump on me and tell me I'm being a bad Muslim.  
But I can't believe for one minute that Allah wants any woman to put up with this kind of abuse.  Isn't there one hadith about a woman coming to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and saying something like, My husband is so ugly, I can't stand to look at him anymore. Can I have a divorce?  And the Prophet said, yes, you are now divorced.  Pardon me if I don't have the hadith incorrect or if I don't understand it correctly, but if the Prophet accepts a divorce just based on looks, surely no one can expect a woman to put up with this kind of abuse?

Sorry if I said anything wrong or if I bothered anyone, I just needed to vent:

IF YOU'RE IN AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE, GET OUT!!!!!!!

Ok.  I'm done now.

Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #15 on: Oct 10, 2008 04:36 PM »


Thank you for your uneducated, useless input. May Allah guide you towards the real Islam that gives everyone rights to be happy and blessed-Ameen.

Ameen.

Unfortunately we've had tons of these topics come up on this board. Over and over again. Just check the archives. It is really sad and a testament to the times we live in. I'm sure there are brothers with many issues as well but they do not post as often.

The consensus seems to be:

1. Find an enlightened Imam, Muslim social services center, or someone with knowledge and status in the community to help.

2. Try to mediate through family members.

3. Get counseling through an abuse hotline or support group.

4. Give an ultimatum and follow through.

In this case I didn't see any "outright abuse"? except for him being a jerk. And it also seems like the sister is quite accepting of it. So I don't see that there is anything you as a friend can do, except be her friend.


P.S. It takes two sides to make a relationship work. If he's not willing then there's no point in her complaining or you as her friend complaining about it. Tell her to make some decisions.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #16 on: Oct 10, 2008 04:37 PM »

In kaffir societies it is fashionable to get a divorce.
Near enough every marriage ends in divorce for them, and they have forgotten that such a thing as patience exists.
Khalwa isn’t an easy thing to obtain, and the women who want it without a just Islamic cause is a munafiq.
So fear Allah before asking for one or even thinking about asking for one.
There is such a thing called Sunnah so follow it, instead of following the mistakes of the Christians and Jews.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #17 on: Oct 10, 2008 05:33 PM »

salaam

ignore the guy above, its just cheese and he just uses his own version of Islam trying to make it look bad.

dont worry your not doing nething wrong nobody is telling u to do anything against sunnah infact its an islamic duty to interfere when there is ne harm being done.

there is not only physical abuse. there is also mental and emotional. if he keep s telling her she doesnt do nething right  and he yells all the time that is considered emotional abuse. she is scared that means she is in a abusive relationship.

so be there for her. being patient in hard times in hard times is a must. she must be patient so her health ect doesnt get bad. but patience doesnt mean do not act. if she stays quiet he will just take advantage of that bc he know s whenever he treats her like that she doesnt do nething. so its a form of acceptance. again like i said she needs to demand respect.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #18 on: Oct 10, 2008 07:31 PM »

Salam again folks, it is me sister H.

I spoken to my friend today and explained that I have asked others for advice rather than just following what my head had heart says.

To the sister in London-you may get contacted by my friend-she is in two minds over the current situation. She has however spoken to her GP who will not encourage a pregnancy-her GP is aware of the situation and has suggested councelling for the bereavement and also that she considers joining a group for women (but there is only mother and baby groups around?!).

There is no violence apart from him throwing things around and the threat of it. There is emotional abuse which is eating her alive literally.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #19 on: Oct 10, 2008 07:38 PM »

sorry I posted without completing the post.

After discussing the options we've discussed on here she has asked for one family member who her husband is close to to speak to her husband and outline all the issues as well as asking him what he wants (which at this stage does not look like a marriage). She is willing to not work if this is what he wants (so he can be like all his friends he admires so much).  If he does not want her to go through with her MA (which she has applied for) she is willing to delay it should his concern be genuine. She is willing to do a deal/compromise but only if he is willing to do so to.

In regards to the poster who is talking about fearing Allah and not following the mistakes of Jews etc. Please read my previous posts in regards to the fact my friend does not want to use that option-that would be her final option as it is for all couples.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #20 on: Oct 10, 2008 07:43 PM »

Sorry again, I'm all fingers and thumbs.

So to update-a family member her husband is close to is going to talk to him and try to get to the bottom of the behaviour.

My friend is willing to meet him half way should he have any genuine concerns in regards to her behaviour/work/eduction.

If everything fails (e.g. these peace talks) then she will ask him to leave. Maybe if he leaves he may realise what he is throwing away?

To anyone feeling I should mind my own business-I would if I thought her family would be able to help her, I cannot leave someone to get through something like this.

To the poster in regards to the fact she takes whatever he throws at her, indeed she does because she keeps getting told he'll get better/a baby will fix it etc etc.

W/salam

Sister H
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #21 on: Oct 11, 2008 05:30 AM »

salaam

Im happy some action is being taken. May Allah swt reward you for helping and being there for her. I hope you continue to no matter what happens.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #22 on: Oct 11, 2008 09:00 PM »

salam

Good, tell the sister to also make lots of duaa and do Istikhara, whilst getting practical help (and yes please do contact me, if nothing I'll listen).

She is being abused, she is scared of the husband, and he is rude and insulting to her even in company, so one can only imagine the words he uses when alone with her.

Abuse is not just when he decides to take a swing at her, and honestly, a baby will never solve any problems, babies put a strain on strong relationships, they bring, sleepless nights, less intimacy, physical and mental exhaustion and a demanding third person in your relationship, hardly the recipe for solving a huge existing problem.

Cheese get with it, it is the Catholic religion that does not allow divorce. Muslim marriages do, the beloved Prophet (saw) in his time did accept divorces when women came to petition him for such, so if Allah and his Prophet (saw) allow it, who are you to make it haram?

Spend several years dancing attendance to someone who cannot even keep a civil tongue in their heads towards you in the company of others, wait around for the person to day in day out, be treated like the crap on the bottom of this persons shoe, all the while doing everything in your power to please this person, and then listen to your heart curse the person with no knowledge or experience or compassion or empathy when they tell you you are going to hell for wanting to be treated like a human being.
 

If you believe in nothing, if you believe a muslim woman has no rights, then the least you have to accept is that Allah himself has decreed, that every married man must keep his wife in Kindness, if the friend of the OP is being treated as she says, then that one right which she has as decreed by Allah, is most certainly not being upheld.


Wassalaam
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #23 on: Oct 11, 2008 10:13 PM »

Tell her not to listen to the advice of people who should mind their own business.
Divorce is not automatic for women in Islam. People infatuated by the western system and feminism might lie to themselves and say it is, but that lie is based on their ignorance.
Without the woman obtaining it from the husband it is very difficult and has conditions.
And demanding it is a grave matter:
"Women who want separation from their husbands and demand Khula are hypocrites " ( Mishkaat ul Masabih,p282 ref nisai)
Hazrat Soubaan ra reported that the messenger of Allah warned: "the Fragrance of paradise is forbideen to a woman who demands divorce from her husband without due cause"( Mishkaat ul Masabih,p283 ref tirmizi)

Before you repeat slogans from talk shows at people who are having really personal problems, pasting what was said in confidence over the internet; don’t you think you should ask yourself whether it is any of your business?
To those who believe in slogans like, “Dump that zero and get yourself a hero”, you should follow the words of our Prophet above the slogans of Kaffir.
Are you really so sure that she has the “due cause” mentioned in that Hadith?
Are you really so sure?
If you are wrong, you could be causing her to do an act which would forbid her from entering Jannah.
Some people really have too much time on their hands.
Unless you are really trying to reconcile and not breaking up, my advice to the husband is to forbid his wife from being friends with you.
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #24 on: Oct 11, 2008 11:28 PM »

salam


Yo cheese, these are narrated by a man, perhaps it will grab your attention now. And note, neither husbands in these cases were being abusive to their wives, and the person the ladies approached was the Beloved Prophet (saw).

Also very curious as to why you ignore posts like for example, the one saying that men are ordered by Allah to keep their wives in KINDNESS.

Also Open your Quran, and read carefully the surah entitled Talaq, it is very enlightening.



Wassalaam

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ibn `Abbas narrated:

The wife of Thabit ibn Qais ibn Shammas came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Messenger! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I am afraid that I (being a Muslim) may become unthankful for Allah's blessings." On that, Allah's Messenger said (to her), "Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes." So she returned his garden to him and the Prophet told him to divorce her. (Al-Bukhari 7:63, no. 199).

Ibn `Abbas also narrated:

Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to `Abbas, "O `Abbas! Are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Messenger! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Al-Bukhari 7:63, no. 206)





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