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Author Topic: Naming a Child is the Fathers Right????  (Read 5572 times)
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blackrose
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« on: Dec 12, 2008 02:10 AM »


salaam

I just read this quote from brother Nuh's post in ShareIslam's thread. I dont want to ruin her thread so I decided to start another one on obviously a completely different subject.

This is the quote:

Naming the child is the right of the father, but it is preferred to consult the mother in the matter, in order to make her happy and soften her heart.

Is this true? If so why?Huh?Huh? Im sure the mother is going to use the name the most. Shouldnt this be an equal right? It is just preferred but not obligatory  to consult the  mother?Huh? sheesh. im sorry but that just sounds crazy. So basically if the father likes a name and the mother doesnt its a done deal.  you know the mother the one that kept the baby in her stomach for nine months who basically does everything for the child maybe except bring home the dough! and she doesnt have the right to name her child?!
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 12, 2008 04:47 AM »

wsalam,

i don't see why this is so upsetting. we always look at things the wrong way. like "why does he get that and not us...we should be equal no matter what blah blah". but again islam isn't like that. it is equitable and just. there's a reason and wisdom for everything. sometimes we see it sometimes we don't. in this case maybe it's the right of the father so he can claim the child and say this is MY child. I picked the name. this is his chance to partake and be part of the child and the legacy. yes you carried the child for 9 months and is so close to him/her, but what about him, what does he get? nothing? and he also has the responsibility and duty in front of Allah to take care of that child forever basically. why shouldn't he have that right?
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 12, 2008 11:35 AM »

Blackrose, I thought the SAAAAAAAAAAME thing. I don't know how reputable the bro's source is.. If my husband said "THIS IS THE NAME" I would go NUTS, especially if I thought it was ugly or something the child would be teased for. Agreeing on a name is important, having one 'bestowed' is a grating thought for me.

I try to remember to count my blessings each day because I have many:

To be thankful for my health, and that of my loved ones, the presence of my husband and the continuation of our marriage, that we can pay our bills and have food on the table..

So many blessings but often, so little thanks!
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 12, 2008 11:40 AM »

Assalamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuh.


I don't know how reputable the bro's source is.


In his lifetime ibn Baz had assumed a number of posts and responsibilities such as:

    * The judge of Al Kharj district upon the recommendation of Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Lateef ash-Shaikh from 1938 to 1951.
    * Held a teaching position in Riyadh at the Ma'had al-'Ilmee in 1951
    * In 1951 after spending fourteen years in al-Kharj as a judge, he was transferred to Riyadh where he became a teacher in the Riyadh Institute of Science and taught in the Faculty of Sharia from 1961 to .
    * In 1961 he was then appointed Vice President, and later President, of the Islamic University of Madinah.
    * In 1970 he became the Chancellor of the University upon the death of Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem Aal ash-Shaykh and he remained chancellor until 1975.
    * In 1975 a royal decree named him Chairman of the Department of Scientific Research and Ifta with the rank of Minister.
    * In 1992 he was appointed Grand Mufti of the Saudi Arabia and Head of the Council of Senior Scholars and was granted presidency of the administration for scientific research and legal rulings.
    * President of the Permanent Committee for Research and Fatawa.
    * President and member of the Constituent Assembly of the World Muslim League.
    * President of the Higher World League Council.
    * President of the Islaamic Fiqh Assembly based in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.
    * Member of the Higher Council of the Islamic University of Medina.
    * Member of the Higher Committee for Islaamic Da'wah in Saudi Arabia.

Over the years, he held a large number of positions as president or member of various Islamic councils and committees, and chaired a number of conferences both within Saudi Arabia and overseas, in addition to writing a great number of books in different fields and issuing a large body of fatwa. In 1981 he was awarded the King Faisal International Prize for Service to Islam.

Ma'as salaama,
nuh ibn


ps

Here is the full quote from ibn Baz. I don't think that it's fair to pull contextual words out of the statements of our ulema - it leads to misinterpretation and misguidance.


Naming the child is the right of the father, but it is preferred to consult the mother in the matter, in order to make her happy and soften her heart. It is legislated for both of them to choose good names and refrain from names which are disliked. It is not permissible when naming a child to use names which involve being a worshipper to other than Allah, such as 'Abdun-Nabi' (the worshipper of the Prophet), 'Abdul-Ka'bah' (the worshipper of the Ka'bah), 'Abdul-Husain and the like. This is because all are creatures of Allah, Most Glorified, so it is not permissible to make someone a worshipper of another besides Him. And the famous scholar, Abu Muhammad Ibn Hazm has reported that there is unanimity among the scholars on the matter of naming someone as a worshipper of other than Allah, except for the name 'Abdul-Muttalib', for the Prophet (saws) approved of this name for some of the Companions -- may Allah be pleased with all of them. And Allah is the Granter of success.

-- Ibn Baz

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« Reply #4 on: Dec 12, 2008 10:45 PM »

I do think the source is pretty authentic: I read it recently in a book on etiquettes for new parents. 

Anyway, for the most part, I do think that most husbands consult their wives in this matter.  Until and unless there's a conflict of interest.... 

And also, while it is their RIGHT to name the child, it is also their RESPONSIBILITY to name him/her with a name that has a good meaning. 
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 13, 2008 11:15 AM »

salam

Is this definitely talking about first names? The child has the right to be given its fathers name as in last name but does the ruling say for definite about first names being chosen by the father? There's got to be a bit more to it than that.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 13, 2008 01:28 PM »

Assalamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuh.


Is this definitely talking about first names? The child has the right to be given its fathers name as in last name but does the ruling say for definite about first names being chosen by the father? There's got to be a bit more to it than that.


I have reviewed the document and some additional opinions that support opinion of the Sheikh. It is definitely talking about first names.

And Allah knows best.

nuh ibn
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 13, 2008 11:37 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,

All praise be to Allah.


Naming the child refers to giving him his first name, called 'Issm' in Arabic, such as "Muhammad" or "Abdullah".  You also have something called Laqab, or nickname, such as "Asad Allah", or the "Lion of Allah," and Kunya, such as "Abu Fulaan", father of so-and-so.  As for the last name, the child is automatically given the family name of the father in Islam.  This is to preserve the rights of lineage and honor in society.


As the shaikh mentioned, the right to give the first name belongs to the father, but perhaps you can say that the right of being given a good name belongs to the child, and it is the father's responsiblity to ensure a good name is chosen, and he will be asked about it on the Day of Judgment.  The Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, mentioned that the rights of a child on the father include giving him a good name, as well as teaching him the Quran and prayer.  Sh. Uthaymeen's habit was this:  He would let his wife choose a name, and if it wasn't suitable, he would ask her to choose another.


One should choose a righteous name with good meaning, that will inspire the child.  It is well known that names have an effect on one's personality.



And Allah knows best. 

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 15, 2008 01:07 AM »

Just make sure any of you sisters have your husband there at the birth, look up into his eyes
pitifully or when they hand you the baby, make sure you snuggle the babe and call it by the name you want.
It really works  Wink
As I snuggled my son when he was crying right after birth saying to the baby,
"It's OK ____'
my X husband looked at the doctors and said, 'I guess his name is _____'  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 15, 2008 09:58 AM »

salam

I have to say, I've only very rarely met men who argue with their wives about naming their child, most men see for themselves the agony and discomfort of child birth and pregnancy and do not interefere if the mother of the child has her heart set on a name.... obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but in england, the father cannot register the childs name without the mothers permission...


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 15, 2008 03:52 PM »

salaam

I honestly think that men who rarely argue with the wives is because they really dont knwo that  it is their right. It seems natural that it would be both parents right. IF they knew it was their right they might not be so understanding. YEs the have a responsiblity to provide a good meaning but what I mean is what if the wife does not like the name although it has a good meaning. it just sounds 'weird' u know what I mean. What Im trying to say is that she will be saying the name most likely more than he so it doesn t seem fair that its the fathers right.
And about being his child well the child takes the fathers last name without doubt. The kid will always have the fathers last name, not the mothers last name no matter what.
It just seems fair if it would be a mutual right like wanting to have a baby is a mutual right.
Also its easy to say but when your husband decides to name your child a name you absolutely dont like then I think one can understand how this ruling seems quite unfair.
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 15, 2008 11:06 PM »

wsalam,

i think this is one of those things where if you have a good marriage you won't have any problems. if you don't and one party wants to force "their rights" against the other without consultation it can get ugly. as for fair, again a person can look at this from a very narrow viewpoint (their own) and say 'oh it's not fair if he names the child, i want *my* name to be used etc etc'. but you have to look at the whole viewpoint of people all over the world at all points in history. and if you don't want to look at that, just turn on jerry springer or look at the epidemic of fathers completely not having anything to do with their kids in the US. i think there's a wisdom and reason why father's are given this right. it instills ownership and responsibility and a relationship from the beginning with the father. the mother is already given this over the 9 months through carrying the child.

ws
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 16, 2008 06:04 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,

All praise be to Allah.


Sh. Kobeisy said something interesting regarding why Islam gives qawaama (protective authority) to the husband (btw Sh. Kobiesy holds his doctorate in Counseling):

Imagine if two people are heading towards a cliff, and they are both arguing about which direction to turn to save themselves from falling off.  If one does not have control over the vehicle, they will both crash and die.

Likewise, the people who argue for equality in all affairs between husband and wife, the feminists, are the ones who cause marriages to fail, since inevitably this will lead to the clash of egos and arguments, with neither side ever winning, to the detriment of the family.

But if people know their boundaries, as defined by Islam, making their reference in all affairs the Quran and Sunnah, they will have a marriage built on a solid foundation, and whenever there is an argument, instead of fighting it out with boxing gloves, they simply refer the matter to the scholars, and swallow their egos when the truth becomes clear.

In any case, the hadith is very clear that it is the father's right and duty to name the child, and it is injustice and oppression to refer to non-Muslim laws to take something that does not belong to you.



And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 17, 2008 08:10 PM »

salaam

Quote
the mother is already given this over the 9 months through carrying the child.

It wasnt exactly pleasant hun. I was extremely sick most of the time. Had wierd stuff happen also and honestly thought I was going to die. So yes when the baby is born I definately felt I should have some right in naming it especially since I was born and raised in US and understood more that it needs to be a name in which he doesnst have to repeatedly explain how to pronounce it or some name that he himself would be able to pronounce. Alot of us pakis actually dont pronounce are names right by the way. If it needs be the 'fathers right' fine but the wife , the mother should aleast like it somewhat. That should be an obligation. She is going to say that name all her life if she doesnt like at all it can lead to resentment. My mother n law told me frankly that they like this 'name' and if I dont like they did not care. How did I feel about that when the child was in MY stomach?! ofcourse I did  not accept (ignored her and didnt say nething then tho). she was not even living here at the time anyway. my husband didnt like the name they picked so it just happen to work out for me. even though they didnt care if he liked it or not. But what if he did? Its easy to say but like I said, I dont think one can understand till it happens to them. oh yah and this is def not about 'my rights 'or your right's this is not an argument whos going to work or which restaruant your going to . This about your own child, your own blood. its about protecting them and caring for them. and if one is not happy then its not easy to make the child happy.
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 17, 2008 09:45 PM »

salam


I'm not terribly sure about the reasoning or validity about the father having the right to name the child. I doubt very much it helps the bonding process, babies as a general rule are born to look like their fathers, that is natures way of helping the father to form a bond with the baby.

I was always going to call my daughters Fatima Zohra, after the beloved prophet (saw)'s daughter, and Khadeeja Kubra after his(saw) beloved wife. I am lucky and glad that the father of my children was apathetic and let me do as I so chose, the ex-inlaws tried to tell me that traditionally the paternal aunts named the children in their family, I politely ignored them.

I also had hyperemesis when expecting, then post partum I heamorraged so badly I nearly died, I think carrying a child and giving birth and nursing a child should allow naming input from the mother. I wouldn't have minded in the least if the father wanted to name my girls, I would have minded a lot if he had wanted to name them something like Britney (cos you know she's so cute and sexy) and I was not allowed to intervene on the grounds it was his right!

The naming process should involve both parents, and neither should force a name one parent particularly dislikes imho.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 17, 2008 10:22 PM »

Assalaamu Alaikum..

I agree... depends on the marriage. 

The thing is... it's the father's right. Not the mother-in-law's, and certainly not the paternal aunts (where in the world did that tradition spur from).  If the husband knows what's good for him, he will most probably not offend his wife by naming the child something that she HATES. 

Btw, fozia... explain this:

Quote
babies as a general rule are born to look like their fathers, that is natures way of helping the father to form a bond with the baby.

I know lots of people that look like their moms!!!

Wasalaam.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 17, 2008 11:02 PM »

salam

Newborn babies look like their dads, it's apparently supposed to help the dads bond with their children. Thankfully (!) most babies grow out of it, but for the first few weeks of their lives babies do look like thier dads, I'm guessing there are exceptions to this.


The paternal aunt thing is stoopid, but who said desi's from back home with no education and nothing much to do with their time made any sense at all.

Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 18, 2008 04:37 AM »

salaam

Its also a custom in memon families that the brothers sister is the one that gets to name the baby..

Quote
the husband knows what's good for him, he will most probably not offend his wife by naming the child something that she HATES.
maybe but even if he is a good husband (if it is his right) he will probly think its his right islamically and thats that, no? And if it is his right then hes really not doing anything wrong..I guess but its all his obligation to mke his wife happy so yah you may be right. Allahu alim.
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 18, 2008 08:00 AM »

In all honesty, I never thought naming a child can/could be an issue regardless of whether it is a father's right or not.  It has never been an issue in my family.

My eldest son's first name was proposed by my first cousin and niece.  I wanted to name him after my younger brother.  Hid Dad did not have any particular name.  The name suggested by my cousin and niece was my Dad's.  So, it was no contest.  He as named after my Dad.

I named my younger son.  Again, his Dad had no problem with it and liked the name too.

Another cousin of mine named most his children himself (he had 9 with his second wife).  She decided the names for her 6th, 7th and 8th.  My cousin had no problem with her decision and choice of names.

Another cousin named all her children (she had eight) herself.  Her husband had neither a problem with her doing this nor the names she chose.

My elder brother and two sisters have done the same with his wife and their husbands.

Some of the kids are named after family members on both sides or in accordance with a lineage, which my cousin did with some of his kids.

One of my nieces had a baby boy this month.  She named him after my younger son.  It is a promise she had given him and she fulfilled it.  Two of my nieces and a grandchild are named after me.

My opinion is that both parents should have the right and pleasure of naming their children.   Last name (or family name) is the father's and that goes without saying.


The Almighty Allah says,

"When a servant thinks of Me, I am near.
When he invokes Me, I am with him.
If he reflects on Me in secret, I reply in secret,
And if he acknowledges Me in an assembly,
I acknowledge him in a far superior assembly."

- Prophet Muhammad (SAW), as reptd by Abu Huraira
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 18, 2008 01:31 PM »

Assalamo elikuim
I agree with Sr.Halima, it has always been both parents decision in my family( I have huge family in Pakistan and in US Smiley ). Sometimes one of the parent likes one name more than other but it has always been decided by mutual agreement.
When my oldest was born, I liked one name but my husband didnt and my mother in law suggested one name that we both liked. When my second was born, I selected one name and my husband was ok with that. For my daughter I always had one name that I liked (like Sr.Fozia)  Smiley and named her that and my husband was ok with that, I would never keep a name that my husband doesnt like and vice versa.
The same has happened with other members in my immediate and extended family, it was never been an issue of power or who has more right .

Wasalam
tq
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 18, 2008 08:22 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,

All praise be to Allah.


You also have to remember that it is the husband who is required to spend on every expense of the child for at least the next 18 years of his life, or maybe more, as well as support his mother, and even pay her for breastfeeding his child.  The father must strive to make sure his family has a roof over his head, food, clothing, and is well taken care of.

What certain cultures do does not necessarily make it correct.  If the mother in law wants to work night and day and pay for all the child's expenses, than maybe she can take this right from the father.  But I've never met a mother in law like that Smiley



And Allah knows best.


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« Reply #21 on: Dec 18, 2008 08:39 PM »

salaam,

The guidance has it's wisdom indeed. Truthfully though, if man/wife just use common sense, there won't be any conflict. Sometimes the answers to life's many questions are quite clear and straightforward. One doesnt always need a fatwa to tell them what is right from wrong. Common sense I say. Seems to be lacking nowadays for some reason.

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« Reply #22 on: Dec 18, 2008 08:47 PM »

salaam

Whatever the reason Allah swt knows and we accept. There is no harm in discussing it to try to understand.  At the same time its upsetting when people try to make up reasons that have no basis

Im sorry brother, but this undermines Women. Havent you read the study on how much woman would be paid if she was paid for the work she did?! (this was just on housewives only)  Just incase you still dont understand, many housewives work 24 hrs while husbands may work 8. Please next time if someone asks you this question or any other dont use this as the reason:

Quote
You also have to remember that it is the husband who is required to spend on every expense of the child for at least the next 18 years of his life, or maybe more, as well as support his mother, and even pay her for breastfeeding his child.  The father must strive to make sure his family has a roof over his head, food, clothing, and is well taken care of.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 18, 2008 09:08 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Honorable sister Blackrose,


Your statement contradicts the Quran. 

This is not my reason, it is the reason stated clearly in the Quran for the Qawamma of men, by Allah, the Lord of the Universe.
 
Allah says:  "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because of what Allah has given men of strength, and because of what they (men) spend from their wealth on them (women.)"  al ayat.


We have to follow the scholars, and not our passions and vain desires, as they are from the Shaitan.  The nafs is inherently evil, and that is why the Prophet, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, sought refuge from its evil.

A person has to put their personal desires aside and follow the revelation from Allah.  And example of this is a non-Muslim who loves pork.  When he accepts Islam, he has to put his desires aside, and he does this knowing that Allah is All Wise in His Legislation.

In any case, if you disagree with the status of men as qawameena over women, then you are disagreeing with the Quran, and if you disagree that the reason for this qawaamaa, is because of what men spend from their wealth on women, then you are also contradicting the Quran, the words of Allah, Lord of the Universe.

Please do not say that the Quran undermines women, in fact it is the Quran itself that protects women from being exploited by society, so they don't have to sell their bodies in order to support a family.

And Allah knows best. 



The scholars also say:

Al-Baydaawi said in his Tafseer (2/184): “ ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ means that they are in charge of them and take care of them. He gave two reasons for that, one that is inherent in them and one that is acquired subsequently, and said: ‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’, because Allaah has favoured men over women by making men more perfect in reasoning and running affairs, and has given them more strength with regard to work and acts of worship. Hence men are singled out when it comes to Prophethood, leadership, guardianship, establishing rituals, giving testimony in legal matters, the obligation to engage in jihad and pray Jumu’ah, and so on, and they are given a greater share of inheritance, and divorce is in the man’s hand. ‘and because they spend (to support them) from their means’ refers to what they spend with regard to marriage, such as the mahr and maintenance, etc.” End quote.


Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 18, 2008 09:23 PM »


I have never heard that the father has bigger right to name the child .So for instance as formyself one of my children is named by her mum and one was named by his sister.The name i have chosen was neglected but i agreed their way
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