// Watch: Muslim Group Donates Turkeys for Needy Families
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blackrose
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« on: Nov 29, 2008 03:35 AM »


timbuktu
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 29, 2008 06:11 AM »

peace be upon you

my two paisas...

while the spirit of giving is good, the origins of Thanksgiving are pagan.

Thanksgiving is an Eid for the US Americans. For Muslims there are only two annual Eids - alFitr and al-Adha, and a weekly eid - Friday

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« Reply #2 on: Nov 29, 2008 10:34 AM »

pagan?Huh?Huh?? where'd you hear that?

what happened to the harvest, the puritans and plymouth rock and the native americans and all that??

"eid for US americans"Huh? what does that mean exactly. this is seriously where cultures collide. if something is not clearly against our deen here we shouldn't have a problem with this. eating dinner together, nope. eating turkey, nope. getting families together, nope. no one said you have to do any particular things on this day, there are no religious ceremonies or connotations. all the scholars i know have no problem with any of it.

ws
 
timbuktu
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 29, 2008 12:01 PM »

peace be upon you

History of Thanksgiving

"What is Thanksgiving and why is it celebrated?"

Quote
For thousands of years, mankind has set aside a day each year to celebrate bountiful annual harvests. ... many ancient farmers believed that their crops contained spirits which caused the crops to grow and die. Many believed that these spirits would be released when the crops were harvested and they had to be destroyed or they would take revenge on the farmers who harvested them. Some of the harvest festivals celebrated the defeat of these spirits. Harvest festivals and Thanksgiving celebrations were held by the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Hebrews, the Chinese, and the Egyptians.


what is thankgiving

I may add that the British celebrated this as a pagan custom, and when Christianity was introduced in Britain, it accepted these customs so as to attract the native population.

The quoted text is from a simple writing. There are more schoalrly articles available. They all mention this as a harvest festival, and that harvest festivals originated as a pagan celebration.

It is true that the Pilgrims offered Thanks for their first full harvest, but as this has been said in the quotes above, celebrations at the harvesting have pagan roots, just as Christmas has. The Pilgims were English settlers, and they carried on the pagan custom from their place of origin. Adaptation of pagan practices by Christians or other People of the Book does not legitimze such practices.

What is at stake is something bigger. I hope you see the larger picture. I have jotted down a few words:

What does the word eid mean, and isn't it applicable here? What did the Prophet (saw) say about our Eids and the eids of the non-belivers.

Pagan societies celebrated the harvesting to drive away evil spirits, released as a result of harvesting (sse above)

Those who submitted to the One God, at all times in the past, were often told to stay away from the practices and close association with non-believers. This is not only true of us whose Book is the Quran. The banu Israel who followed the prophet Musa (as), were also told that they should not have closeness with the mushrekeen. The prophets (as) in the Old Testament keep warning the Israelis of the corrupt practices that had crept in their culture from this association, and that G_d's wrath would befall them.

A look at history will confirm that many sects and schisms have been born out of this mixing and adaptation/adoption. The Balkans and the Middle East are full of small religions that are a mixture of Islam and various sects of Christianity. Similarly, South Asia has a similar abundance of mutations due to mixing of Islam and Hinduism.

Of course, a similar picture emerges in Judaism and Christianity.

Look at the Moros and their descendents, the Spanish Muslims who had  initially been forcibly baptized. They initially practiced Islam in the confines of their homes, but their descendents eventually evolved a mosaic of beliefs that would no longer keep them within the deen.

I have written a little about the Universal Sufi Movement. It is totally out of Islam.

I have no doubt that we will be able to find a similar picture in Central and North West Asia, and Africa.

The same is happening to Muslims in the West, as Muslims try to adjust to their surroundings, make compromises, and coalesce into groups that disregard some Islamic practices, and incorporate some non-Islamic ones.

Living in the West, you are going to see more sects being created, and you are going to see some of these leave Islam.

I believe that Ibne Taymmiyya has explained the shirk involved in accepting the culture of non-believers, from the Quran and the Sunnah.


 
Sr.Kathy
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 29, 2008 04:07 PM »

Subhanna Allah-

What great dawah. may Allah swt reward all those Muslims who reached out to the poor and gave them some food to eat on Thanksgiving and left overs for a couple of days.

When my son was  four years old, money was tight and we barely knew where the next weeks groceries were coming from.  Thanksgiving was approaching, I knew we were going to have hamburger for Thanksgiving dinner. (Disclaimer- yes i realize we were blessed to have that) Thanksgiving is part of my culture, my culture as a believer. It is a day my family gets together- Muslims and non- we enjoy a good meal, strengthen our familial responsibilites and all in rememberance of Allah/God- making sure we give thanks to the One who all thanks should be given.

This was a blow- but part of reality.  Apparently the school he was going to automatically signed up families who received free lunches for a free turkey.

To this day I remember the lady at St. Mary's who gave us one.  yes...St. Mary's- a Catholic church.

Imagine, just imagine, by Allah swt will- who's hearts may be open to the Muslims. Timbuktu- I really get what you are saying... i just think there is another school of thought that needs to be discussed amongst the scholars on this issue.

Just tell me where to donate for next years give away... or maybe I'll do one here.

(Please save all your comments about halal/ zabihia for a different topic)

Allah who allum- I was looking up some info an hour after i posted this.... even Muslims in need of having dinner at a rescue mission:


http://www.rmsyr.org/Development/2008/2008-BingThanksDinner/Main_Page.htm


"Allah surely knows the warmth of every teardrop... " Jaihoon
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 29, 2008 06:50 PM »

I do not agree using the origin as an excuse not to celebrate a holiday. I see it the same way as blaming a person for their past. Right now If something brings love and happiness and has no harm in todays world then I cannot believe that it will be against Islam. To Me yes to to me that includes halloween, valentines, birthdays, mothers day anniversaries, and thanksgiving. I know most do not agree and I have already read on all of scholarly things. The only excuse that is used is the origin and the 'imitiation' hadith. Well there are diff of opinion on how to interpret the hadith by scholars. one cannot use it for everything. as the prophet pbuh did not use cars or computers and all that.  the only thing I believe one should not celebrate is other peoples religious holidays bc we do not beleive in that. I know many 'religous' muslims who celebrate these holidays. I know some muslims who celebrate christmas, I think that is not allowed and going overboard. This is soley my opinion.

Well back to thanksgiving, most scholars might not agree on what I said about the rest of the holidays, but as Jannah said most do agree that thanksgiving is ok to do.
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 30, 2008 02:24 AM »

As salamu alaykum,

Allahu Alim what is right or wrong, and it is not for me to tell others what to do.  Thanksgiving was my favorite holiday growing up, because we spent it with my father's side of the family.   Grin  We also went to the Catholic church for mass every Thanksgiving, which was not my favorite thing to do. Sad

To be honest I can't eat such heavy food anymore, because it makes me sick to my stomach.  I do find it nice that no matter where people come from they embrace this holiday.  My coworker, originally from Pakistan, got together with her family of 70 people and her mother was in charge of making the two turkies.  Most converts, that I know, don't celebrate the holiday and if they want a turkey, they cook it on a different a day.  I like that fact that I got to relax and did not have to correct any papers for three days.    Tongue  Tomorrow I'l be correcting all day.   :'(

Was salam,
Marcie  pinkhijabisis
timbuktu
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 30, 2008 11:59 AM »

peace be upon you

Aoodhu billahe minashshyataaneerrajeem

Bismillahir Remanir Raheem

Rabbishlah lee sadree
Wa yassir lee amree
Wahlul uqdatammin lisanee
Yafqahu qaulee

Sr. Kathy, Subhanallah, indeed!

I had hoped the exposure of my experiences on other threads would have explained what I have learnt from life, but perhaps I have to be clearer in expressing myself:

It was not my job that fed me and allowed me to meet my obligations; it is not my pension that puts food on my table and pays the bills; it was not and is not my medicine that controlled and controls my asthma or my eyesight; and it was not my brains that gave me what I have had in the past and what I have today. I made the mistake of thinking that the world was me-centric, and it is the physical laws that govern it. I suspect most of us make the same mistakes.

In reality, although the physical laws still govern the world, a different situation can be and is created out of the blue as it were. Whenever I have realized and turned back to the One whose Will gives us everything, the circumstances have been changed for me. And it is not just for me, they change for everyone.

Similarly it was not the donation at thanksgiving that put a turkey on your table; it was Allah's Will, which could and would have been fulfilled in any of His ways. That turkey was destined for your table.

We will leave it at that.

Let us now take the case of dawah. As I have said in different words, generations of humanity in different parts of the world have repeated the same mistakes over and over again, with naturally the same results. And we are lucky to have been warned and given directions by the last Prophet (Sallallahu alaehe wa sallam) about what to expect, and how to conduct ourselves.

Sister blackrose, using technologies or knowledge is different from imitating culture. One is allowed, the other forbidden, by none other than the Prophet (saw).

He made it quite plain. If the origin of a celebration, whether the reason or the place, was pagan non-Islamic, Muslims were not to celebrate it. I do not recall the exact Hadith, but this is the gist. Maybe some day I will find it, and then I will insha`Allah post it.

If it is the celebration of ahle Kitaab, with a religious background which Muslims also acknowledge, the celebration should be differentiated from the others. And our celebration is in a different way than the rest.

My point is very simple. Giving food or other things in charity is a good deed. Why does it have to be tied to Thanksgiving Day?

If one cannot give every day, why not do it every Friday. If that is too frequent, why not do so every first day of the lunar month. If that too is unaffordable, why not in Ramadan, on Eidul Fitr and on Eudul Adha, and beyond that, at random.

It is not at Thanksgiving Day only when the poor need food.

In fact, for a Muslim every day is a day for giving thanks, and we start our day with Thanking Allah.

By integrating into this culture, you are indeed using an opportunity for Dawah, but at the same time, you are opening a door for an innovation in Islam.

Wa maa alaena illal balaghul mubeen
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 01, 2008 04:22 AM »

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, But I don't know of any pagan reason for Thanksgiving. Huh?
The reason most in the US celebrate it is cause when the pilgrim landed they had serious issues with illness, food
and death, The Native Americans helped them through this. As well as the pilgrims helping the Indians
with planting. As a result the following harvesting season there was a great feast to thank God
in which the Natives were invited.
Thus now it is a day set aside once a year to give thanks.
Although I believe every day is a day to give thanks, many families no longer live near each other and
this holiday is a time where many families get together in harmony and have a nice dinner and give thanks to God.

I did go to my son's home and has a wonderful time. It was a time of thanks for all my blessings and
time spent with family. May Allah forgive me if I was wrong, but my heart had what I pray was the right intent.
But as to Thanksgiving being a pagan or pagan originated holiday? Please if someone can find fact with
that please educate me.
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 01, 2008 10:29 AM »

ws,

It's not a pagan holiday. The Puritans, you remember, were extreme in their antithesis of anything pagan. Remember these are the witch burning, Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlett Letter type of people who got thrown out of England because they were too extreme in their Christian-ness. If someone wants to go all the way back to Christianity's founding and point out some of it was created to replace pagan holidays and traditions or even came from there I mean I don't know what is being implied, that Christianity is a pagan faith? If you're going to go that far and I know people have argued it, that's just something else.

Quote
Thanksgiving, or Thanksgiving Day, celebrated on the fourth Thursday in November, at the end of the harvest season, is an annual American Federal holiday to express thanks for one's material and spiritual possessions.

Most people celebrate by gathering at home with family or friends for a holiday feast. Though the holiday's origins can be traced to harvest festivals which have been celebrated in many cultures since ancient times, the American holiday has religious undertones related to the deliverance of the English settlers by Native Americans after the brutal winter at Plymouth, Massachusetts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)


I hate to quote a fatwa but this is for information's sake and hopefully to establish that there is a difference of opinion and that i doubt we will resolve "halal/haram" here once again:

Quote
“Can I give Thanks and Throw Down on Some Turkey this Week?”

Asalamu alaykum,

Can I celebrate Thanksgiving with my parents? I converted a few years back and it is very important to them? Things haven’t been great since my reversion. What are your thoughts?

The Answer:

There is a legitimate scholarly difference surrounding this issue. Those who hold such celebrations as forbidden do so contending that such celebrations are “religious in nature” and amount to imitating the religious rites of others. One of my teachers, Sh. ‘Abdul Jalil al-Mezgouria told me, “There is nothing religious about this celebration.” In fact, I remember him giving a khutba about it a number of years back.

Some Background

Those who contented that such celebrations are permissible, do so contending the opposite: such celebrations are not religious in nature and that the origin of things is permissible unless explicitly forbidden. Sheikh al-Qaradawi stated, concerning Mother’s Day, there is no way he considered it forbidden. He based his contention on the legal axiom: “Nothing is made forbidden except with a clear text.”

 

It is well known that al-Rajabiyah was a holiday observed by the Arabs before for the time of the Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him] up until the third century A.H and the jurist differed on its ruling. The Hanabali’s considered it permissible, while the Malikis held it to be disliked.

Those who hold it permissible also note that the Prophet’s statement, “Our holidays are two” is not a prohibition to celebrate other holidays outside of the religious spear.

The Indigenous Imperative

As a convert to Islam and based on my humble legal training, I agree with the second opinion. Many of us, those of us who have converted to Islam, can use these moments to share the beauty of our faith with our families and loved ones in an non-hostile environment. Perhaps, by giving gifts to our parents we can heal wounds, build relationships and move forward. At the same time, such celebrations are based on the foundations of our faith: honoring one’s parents. Therefore, we should engage such holidays with the intention of fostering noble relations and spreading the beauty of our faith with others.

Allah knows best

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/general/can-i-give-thanks-and-throw-down-on-some-turkey-this-week/



timbuktu
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 01, 2008 12:59 PM »

peace be upon you

I understand that a day set aside for a national holiday, serves the purpose of getting families together and demonstrates in mixed-faith families, that becoming a Muslim does not take you out of the family connections, that Muslims also love fun Smiley

It is indeed a great moment for Dawah, as the families are together.

I would love to hear stories of Dawah at such times.

I agree that Muslim charity on this day also serves the purpose of Dawah. What I fail to understand is why the brothers are doing it on that particular day. Why not on a day that has a clear Islamic message.

I have shown earlier that Thanksgiving Day is derived from pagan practice, and the Prophet (saw) prohibited celebrations that had that origin.

How pure the Pilgrim Fathers were is not relevant here, but they believed in Trinity. I wouldn't call that pure. They took the English Christian practice of thanksgiving after harvest. Unfortunately this so-called Christian festival had its roots in pagan England, only this was not recognized then. Maybe if I were really interested in the Puritans, Church of England or Separatists, I would read up on all that they wrote, but I am not that much interested. They transplanted thanksgiving in the New World, without knowing it had a pagan root.

If instead of quoting modern or past Sheikhs, any one here can quote from alQuran, or the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) or his khulafae rashedeen, I will be convinced.

Personally, I am at a very low level of the practice of deen. One thing I have learnt is that I do not try to justify what is in conflict with the Quran and Sunnah. I acknowledge my limitations and my faults, and I seek Allah's Forgiveness and Rehma.

So, if I had non-Muslim family and to be with them, I were celebrating Thanksgiving, or Holi or Dewali, I would do so with the knowledge that it is forbidden, that I may be committing a sin, but I would be asking Allah (swt) to forgive me, for the intention was good.

I wouldn't be trying to justify it.

But then that is me. Everyone who gets into Allah's Jannah will do so by His Rehma alone.

May Allah (swt) protect us from Shayateen, and Hell, and may He forgive us so we can all meet and enjoy the fruits of Jannatul Firdaws

aameen
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 01, 2008 09:14 PM »

I do wonder and maybe some of you can help.
I was appalled at how many holidays here in the US originated.
But will be we be judged on our hearts as individuals?
Or will be we be judged on doing something that was someone Else's wrong intent?
I don't like the Christmas thing and it's coming soon.
I don't need a reason to give thanks of thank Allah for my blessings and his mercy.
I do love winter and lights and although I don't need a certain day to give a loved one a gift or have lights and decorate, but why not thank Alah for the spring time when we can plant and see the baby creatures he created?
Why not celebrate the harvest  time giving thanks.
Why not the winter time as a beautiful time to relax after the planting and harvesting seasons?
I would pray and hope my hearts motives and intent is judged, not the intent of those who
started traditions with their own intent and agenda in mind.
I'd sincerely love some input on this.
No matter where we are in our spiritual walk and be us a Christian, Muslim or whatever else.
Isn't ok to be doing good works for Allah's sake no matter who or where or when?
timbuktu
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 02, 2008 01:32 PM »

peace be upon you

I read the article "Curriculum for new Muslims" by Shaikh Abdus Sattar, as posted by jannah, and felt it was directed at me. It has some very sound advice for us all, and I must thank jannah for posting this, which has led to my reading some other important  articles.

I post a reply to the last post here by Blessedgrandma, in the light of that article, and some more that I have read.

First of all, I should have made a disclaimer that I am not a Mufti, and not even a Talibe ilm.

I was only trying to inform of what I do know.

Looking back at this thread, I can see that there are occasions when this issue can be neglected, even perhaps in the present context, because the Ummah faces far greater problems.

I do note that the trend in the West has been secularization and acceptance of diversity, which is an improvement on hostility based on ignorance.

The origins of the celebrations under discussion were pagan, worldwide. For a long time since the US was, and perhaps still is Christian, this holiday could be identified as a Christian holiday - Mass and service and saying Grace and all. But immigrants from other backgrounds have embraced this holiday as a day to meet and treat family, it has become secular in essence.

Some questions arise:

Q: Will it always stay secular and tolerant?

A: The answer is no, if the past is any guide.

Q: Will Christian or pagan practice come back in this festival.

A: Again, if the past is any guide, this is indeed likely to happen.

Q: Can this Thanksgiving holiday be Islamized?

A: I am afraid no. There are only two annual Eids for us. It can, at best, remain a secular holiday.

Now for Qs that Blessedgrandma has asked:

Q: will we be judged on our hearts as individuals? Or will we be judged on doing something that was someone else's wrong intent?

A: We will be judged on two things: our own intention, not someone else's, and what we do.

Q: Why not thank Allah for the spring time when we can plant and see the baby creatures he created?

Why not celebrate the harvest time giving thanks.

Why not the winter time as a beautiful time to relax after the planting and harvesting seasons?

A: As I have said, and you have too earlier, we do not need special occasions to give thanks. Our Salah five times a day is a submission to, a talk with, and a giving of thanks to Allah (swt). In addition we are to do dhikr at all times, verbally as well as remembering Him in our actions.

Celebrations are a different matter. We were told by the Prophet (saw) that we have two annual Eids, no more. We have a weekly Eid, the Friday. How beautiful these Eids were, I don't think anyone would know now. Ever since the westernization of our societies, we have lost a great deal.

Not once, but twice a year, on Eids, my siblings  and their families join my mother in celebrations. On Eidul Fitr, and the second day of Eid-ul-Adha. Unfortunately, my own family has not been together with her for many, many years, maybe decades.

Friday is no longer a holiday. In my childhood, we had the day off. A bath on that day was compulsory. We put on atr (perfume), even kohl. The dress was neat, a white kurta-pajama, freshly washed and ironed. Reading the Quran on that day was compulsory without being told so. We did it because our hearts so desired, with translation and tafseer. Then Surah Kahf (for it is recommended Sunnah on Friday, to ward off the dajjal). Then we set off for the Masjid. It smelt nice all over. There was a section for women, with a separate entrance. We said tahayyatul masjid (two rakaas), and sat down silently, saying istaghfaar , durood, and other dhikr. What the women did, I do not know. I do not recall going in their enclosure even when I was a kid.

The khutba was fantastic. Arabic, and Urdu, which we could understand. We would come back, and sit for lunch, all of us together.

Later, when my father wasn't there anymore, and we were adolescents, this Friday prayer was still that I looked forward to. I felt so peaceful, I sometimes fell asleep after praying the sunnah.

There are three masajid I remember particularly:

   a. Masjid Mian Sahib in Delhi, just round the corner from my grandfather's house. (the masjid was probably linked to Mian Nazeer Hussain, the sheikh to whom all Hadith sheikhs in the Indo Pak now trace their own sheikhs to.
   
   b. Aek minara (one minar) masjid in Housing Society, Karachi. We still live close, and when I go to Karachi, we offer Jumma there.
   
   c. Jamae Masjid built by Aurangzeb Alamgir in Chittagong.
   
It is not the same now. Friday is not a holiday. Everyone is at work or school. People do come for prayers, but sometimes they smell of perspiration, as they have been working. There are a few souls, mostly old men, who put on atr, and some young ones who have turned to the Sunnah.

As for the annual Eids, same method for getting ready, only earlier, and when we could afford it, new clothes and shoes. And after wearing anything new, offering two rakaas of thanks.

What is it I want? I want the barakah of the Sunnah of Fridays and Eids to be brought back to us - all Muslims. It would be nice if Fridays and Eids were the prescribed holidays everywhere; if Eidul Fitr were combined with Aetekaaf days to give us an extended holiday from the last third of Ramadan to the end of Eid. If instead of us relying on secular and non-Islamic holidays to meet our families, we could do so on our own religious special days.
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 02, 2008 10:55 PM »

Quote
I read the article "Curriculum for new Muslims" by Shaikh Abdus Sattar, as posted by jannah, and felt it was directed at me.

huh? did you mean i posted it directed at you? or just that you felt it spoke to you?  i've been saving that to post for awhile but only got around to it last night... not as a response to anything but just because i thought it was a good reference article and that is all.

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« Reply #14 on: Dec 03, 2008 12:14 AM »

peace be upon you

it was a good article, and it spoke to me, not that you meant it for me specifically.
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 16, 2008 02:21 PM »

Asak
I read this article posted in Cair's e-mail and thought of this post.  This is a really good idea and encompasses the Islamic Deen as well as providing meat during a time that will soften a non Muslims heart, Insha Allah.

Quote
OH: MUSLIMS CELEBRATE EID, DONATE MEAT TO NEEDY - TOP
David Yonke, Toledo Blade, 12/15/08

Toledo Muslims are donating more than 1,500 pounds of meat slaughtered for an Islamic holiday to the area's poor and needy.
"Fresh meat is something that is really missing in most food banks and shelter homes," Dr. M. Razi Rafeeq said.
The goats, sheep, lambs, and cows were slaughtered by butchers paid by Muslims in accordance with a ritual observance of the Islamic holiday of Eid al-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice. The holiday commemorates God's sparing of the Prophet Abraham from having to sacrifice his son, Ismail.
The holiday was celebrated on Monday at the end of the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina in which more than 2 million Muslims participate.
More than 700 Muslims celebrated the Eid with prayers followed by a community meal at the Masjid Saad in Sylvania, while 500 observed the holiday at the Islamic Center of Greater Toledo in Perrysburg Township.
Representatives of those two mosques joined with the Toledo Masjid of Al-Islam in the central city to found the Islamic Food Bank of Toledo. The food is given to anyone in need, not just Muslims, according to Yehia "John" Shousher, one of the food bank's founders.
"Donating meat to the poor and needy has been done before on the local level but only by individuals," Mr. Shousher said.
Dr. Rafeeq, president of the food bank, said donating the meat to the needy follows the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam, and the Islamic holy book.
"The Qur'an repeatedly reminds Muslims of helping the poor, the hungry, the needy, and the orphans," he said.
"The Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, has said that a person is not a true Muslim if he goes to bed with a full stomach while his neighbor is hungry. So this is something we are obligated to do."

"Allah surely knows the warmth of every teardrop... " Jaihoon
timbuktu
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 16, 2008 02:42 PM »

peace be upon you

alHamdulillah. May Allah (swt) accept the deeds of all those who participated in this, and may He increase our Dawah and its acceptance by the population.

This is for the Admin:

I cannot find how to write out the alHamdulillah in Arabic. I do not see an Arabic font, nor an Arabic keyboard. All I see is the following:

So why don't I have Arabic, when "we" have it?
jannah
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 16, 2008 06:28 PM »

Here's an Arabic keyboard you can use:  http://www.arabic-keyboard.org/
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