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Author Topic: History does not repeat itself. People repeat history  (Read 4821 times)
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timbuktu
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« on: Jan 25, 2009 11:21 AM »


peace be upon you

Note: At the urging of a fellow Madinian, I have changed the title of this thread.

So this is the change promised. Within a day or two of his announcing a new approach, Obama's drones attacked two villages in Waziristan, killing 15 20 civilians, including women and children.

So this is the promised change, and the promised new approach to Muslims.

As troubled as we are with the Taliban and common criminal activities in Pakistan, Obama can rest assured that we will first fight non Muslim attackers.
nuh
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 25, 2009 02:55 PM »

Death toll hits 21 in 'US strikes' on Pakistan

MIRANSHAH, Pakistan (AFP) – Six more bodies were recovered from the rubble of an Al-Qaeda den hit by a suspected US missile, pushing the death toll in two separate strikes to 21, security officials said Saturday.

"Six bodies of local tribesmen were found in the rubble of the house which was destroyed in a US missile strike on Friday just outside the town of Mir Ali in North Waziristan district," the official said.

On Friday officials said eight people including five foreigners -- Pakistani officials use the term "foreigners" to describe Al-Qaeda militants -- died in the missile strike at the house of a pro-Taliban tribesman near Mir Ali.

Hours later another suspected US drone fired two missiles into a house in Wana, the main town in South Waziristan, killing seven people.

The strikes were the first under new US President Barack Obama and effectively dashed any hopes that Pakistani officials were nurturing that the new administration in Washington will halt such strikes.

Dozens of similar strikes since August have sparked government criticism of the United States, a close ally fighting the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan and believed to be firing the missiles from unmanned CIA aircraft.

Pakistan has repeatedly protested to Washington that drone strikes violate its territorial sovereignty and deepen resentment among the 160 million people of the nuclear-armed Islamic nation.

President Asif Ali Zardari and army chief General Ashfaq Kayani were quoted as telling top US General David Petraeus in Islamabad on Tuesday that they hoped the Obama administration would take their concerns into consideration.
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 25, 2009 05:52 PM »

assalamualaikum

pakistan has crazy people running around almost unpoliced, and it expects the world to accept this status quo?

if it doesn't not deal with its own crazies who cause unbelievable trouble in so many places, someone else will deal with them.
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 26, 2009 10:51 AM »



So how many innocents have to die before the US decides it's finished off the 'crazies'? It's these kinds of actions that create them in the first place..just take a look at Palestine.

Wassalam

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« Reply #4 on: Jan 26, 2009 01:21 PM »

Salaams,

Well actually us Muslims do need to keep watch on powerful leaders of the world, we should have a good lobby and should try to bring lesser evil in govt with our vote. At the same time we must not put all our hopes in any leaders as whatever change would come to us would be through our own actions and Allah's help. So IMO we can't really say "to hell" with any powerful leaders when it comes to diplomatic and political islam.

That said, to hell with Obama indeed when it'll come to defending Muslim lands. Accordingly to Dr. Muhammad Iqbal's ideology after collapse of the Caliphate - To begin with, all Muslim countries are (or should be) like the provinces of one collective Muslim world. These Muslim provinces should have same economic, foreign (et al) policies which would eventually lead to Caliphate. So attack on one country/province should be considered an attack on all, and by that rule the soldiers and leaders of the attacking army would be considered at war with us in form of invaders. Of course islam doesn't allow killing of civilians, children, unarmed men and women.


[Edited by Admin: Edited so you don't get arrested.]


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timbuktu
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 26, 2009 01:45 PM »

pakistan has crazy people running around almost unpoliced, and it expects the world to accept this status quo?

if it doesn't not deal with its own crazies who cause unbelievable trouble in so many places, someone else will deal with them.

True, but then tell me if the US or India or Israel do not have crazy people running around, creating trouble for others.

I guess the 350 children in Gaza, including 2-year old Amal killed by Israel  was also a crazy person running around creating trouble for others.

Just like the many women and children killed by the US and NATO in Afghanistan and Pakistan

And the Kashmiris killed by the Indian army

and the Muslims killed regularly in the anti-Muslim riots throughout India.

The Us electorate even put in a crazy person in the White House for eight years.

His replacement rpomised a new approach towards Muslims. That is all I have exposed here. There is no new approach.
nuh
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 26, 2009 09:40 PM »

As salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

Help you one another in Birr and Taqwa; but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (5:2)



May Allah grant us all Tawfiq.  Ameen.
Ma'as salaama,
nuh ibn


[Edited by Admin: Irrelevant now as the mentioned post was edited.]
nuh
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 27, 2009 05:49 PM »

As salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

The edit on my post was uncalled for as there was nothing unacceptable in it.

I fear what is happening here!

May Allah grant us all Tawfiq.  Ameen.
Ma'as salaama,
nuh ibn
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 27, 2009 07:39 PM »

I wonder why muslems specially arabs are expecting from the west what they dont get from their own leaders .that is number one . no 2 is obama supposed to give priority to his country or to the other world? I think we should be realistic and leave obama for who elected him and they know if they did the right choice or not.They can only judge that .

hope we can elect a leader from inside oursleves to make the change we are looking for

good luck   
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 28, 2009 04:29 AM »

Do any of you have any idea how many of us Americans (Muslim and non Muslim) would
love to see our country totally out of everyone elses business and back yard?
To put up a HUGE fence between us and Mexico and also us and Canada,
place all our aircraft carriers on each border to the west and east and tell the other countries
THERE, GO KILL AND BLOW YOURSELVES UP, GO A HEAD, KNOCK YOURSELVES OUT, BUT YOU BETTER NEVER COME TO OUR DOOR.
We wpnder if we weren't paying for the wars, giving out aide, allowing forgeiners to come in all the time
how much of our natioanl debt we could pay off, pay off China what we owe, maybe get our own act together.
Spend our money on education and making our country better?
I get so tired of hearing how bad my country is, no it's no piece of cake, it's not the perfect society,
but then again we can't be all that bad, thousand upon thousands yearly beat down our doors and want to live here.
Kind of doesn't make sense, if I had a neighbor I dispised I certainly wouldn't want to go live with them.
timbuktu
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 28, 2009 06:36 AM »

peace be upon you

I can understand your frustration at feeling that your country is targeted for criticism, round the clock.

As Muslims we are concerned with a few things as our priorities:

1. Our own, and our families' salvation. Satan attacks us from within, and from without. We have to try to minimize his chances. Any innovation, in deen or dunya, that is leading us towards hell is thus targeted irrespective of its country of origin.

2. Efforts for Dawah to be given without hindrance, so that those who receive Dawah can decide where they want to go.

3. Peace and justice on this Earth. This is something shared by most people in the world.

Your post makes me ask these questions: What is a country? Is there a Divine sanction for a country? What does loyalty to our country mean? To what extent do we have to cater to the ruling elite's interests?

The fact is that for about a hundred years, and more clearly since the end of WW-II, the US of A has developed forces that intervene and destabilize regions around the globe. This can be done, has been done, and is being done both overtly and covertly. As a result, millions have lost their lives, while millions more have lost their homes and livelihoods. Those who are affected, or who find such behavior atrocious, will criticize such activities of the US of A. Unfortunately, with the global nature of the activities of the US of A, there is always some place where people are getting hurt because of the policies of the government of USA. Hence you see criticism of the US government. This is not a criticism of the people. People everywhere are mostly concerned with their own lives.

It is easy to wish one's country to be isolated. At the beginning of the attack on Iraq, 3.1 trillion dollars of Saudi money was sitting in the USA. That is more than 30% of the GDP of USA at that time. Had the Saudis withdrawn that money, or not deposited in in the US, the effect on the US economy would have been drastically negative. OF course, they wouldn't, because the money was looted from the Saudi oil proceeds, and like all other loot, it ended up in the West's coffers.

There are other countries that have to cater to the West's banking system, which has been designed to make money flow from the third world countries to the West. If these countries were really independent, they would remove their money out, and leave the West's economic system.

People in many countries have tried to elect governments that would improve their own societies, but the US elite has seen a threat in them, and financed, trained, and helped criminals in those countries to stage a coup and reverse the improvements. As a result, those countries have gotten into debt, thus becoming permanently hooked to the Empire.

What choice do ordinary people have then, but to move where they can keep body and soul together. So while you may consider immigration to the US as an act of generosity on the part of the US population, it occurs very largely due to economic circumstances brought on by the action of the US government. In the process, the US has also benefitted from the inflow of skilled and unskilled labor. And incidentally, it is not unique to the US. It has occurred in other countries, and other regions within a country. Economic migration is a reality that cannot be stopped.

If I remember correctly, around the 1930's Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar, an Indian leader, went to London for a conference called by the British government to discuss India's future. The idea of independence was anathema for the British government. Maulana Jauhar eventually said: "I have come to Britain to seek independence. If you cannot give me that, you must be prepared to give a piece of your land for my dead body because I will not go back to an enslaved land." He died of heart attack after the conference failed.

If people in the developing world cannot have peace and justice in their part of the world because of the ambitions of the movers and shakers of this world, some of them will be forced to move elsewhere to seek a peaceful life. Others may decide that if they cannot have peace, neither should any one else.

What you are experiencing and expressing in the US is what happens in times of decline of an empire. What people at the center of an empire go through at such times, is well documented and quite well understood.

The world is changing, and will change further. Obama has well said that the economic problems have been brought on by greed. Unfortunately, greed is the basis of capitalism, which has been what the US has believed in.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 28, 2009 07:57 AM »

So basically the whole worlds problems are all the US's fault? Huh?
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:02 AM »

i think it's a little harsh...

here's a guy who the whole world has pinned their hopes on.  he's trying to make his country better; we could do the same for ours.
timbuktu
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 28, 2009 09:18 AM »

peace be upon you

So basically the whole worlds problems are all the US's fault? Huh?

No. Not all problems. And there are partners in crime in other countries. I do not blame countries. I identify the forces within the countries that are responsible. Throughout the previous 8 years I did not criticize the US. I criticized the government of the US.

Citizens of the USA believe that since they get to elect their government, they ARE the government. They are not. It is somewhat more complex than that.

As for JO's comment:

Quote
he's trying to make his country better; we could do the same for ours.

True, he is looking after the interests of the US of A, and good luck to him for that. However, he promised a new approach to Muslims around the world. And as Dr. Mahathir has pointed out, what the US does affects people around the globe, so although we may not be voters in the US elections, we are definitely a constituency. If he continues with policies that kill and maim innocents, some in this constituency will be justified in taking to violence, and some won't lift a finger to stop them.
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 28, 2009 11:30 AM »

Assalam Alaikum,

THERE, GO KILL AND BLOW YOURSELVES UP, GO A HEAD, KNOCK YOURSELVES OUT, BUT YOU BETTER NEVER COME TO OUR DOOR.

If that "coming to our door" part is pointing to 9-11 then I'd like to add that its not a conspiracy theory anymore that who actually engineered those attacks. To achieve their goals the greedy elements in US govt wanted all their public with them, and for that they wanted another event like pearl harbor. Al-Qaida never had the capacity to plan those attacks and many fact based documentaries are around which prove that 9-11 was engineered by elements within US govt.

The example of USA is like crashing into a wife-beater neighbors house, and then killing that neighbor, raping his wife, looting their house, cutting limbs of one of their kids and then supporting their other kid for higher education.

The knight doesn't wait when he's ill or has cancer brother, the knight fights on... He finds a strategy, changes tactics, and hits hard.
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 28, 2009 06:15 PM »

Assalam Alaikum,

The example of USA is like crashing into a wife-beater neighbors house, and then killing that neighbor, raping his wife, looting their house, cutting limbs of one of their kids and then supporting their other kid for higher education.

 Or like in Afghanistan stalking little girls on their way to school to throw acid in their facesHuh?Huh?Huh?Huh???
Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh???
Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh???

You know, many of your countries had issues, wars and death of innocents long before my country was even in existance.
And brother Timbuktu, your comment about a dwindling empires, my grandparents and great granparents survivied the Great Depression when families stood in soup kitchen lines and men walked to find  jobs with no soles left on their shoes. We will survivie this. The people now a days in my country think a hard time is having the cable turned off, they haven't got a clue and maybe some hard times will teach them not to live off credit and humble them a little.
But we will survivie these time.
I really hate to be rude but I've about had my fill of all this crap.
Brother Timbuktu, I have always had such great respect for you, your kindness and wisdom, you over the years are the person I could most compare to with the Prophet, and I don't say this lightly, now you're acting like these young punks sounding the battle cry. Where is the wisdom and compassion I seen from you all these years?
In my eyes you were more like Uncle Timbuktu instead of just Timbuktu.
If anyone was a person in my limited knowledge of you could be said to be following the life of the Prophet
with his compassion and wisdom, to me that would of been you. Now either you faked it all along or your heart is turning sour.
Brothers hardtohit, UN and Nuh, you all act like my children did when they were little and I had tro change their behavior,
always blaming each other or someone else for their anger or actions,
 so here you are, blaming someone else for your countries and the worlds woes,  not taking any responsability for your own worlds and ready to fight and blame the other guy.
You guys forget, I only raised males, I was only raised around males (brother and male cousins)

I know how you men act at times DOWN RIGHT FOOLISH

I DON'T see any Muslim or Arab countries scolding the Muslim countries not acting right, I don't see any taking responsability and stepping up to the plate to referee and keep these other countries in check, all I hear.
'What is the US going to do about this or that'
What are you men, you MUSLIM men doing to make your own worlds better.
Do you help your elderly neighbors, do you go to town and state meetings? Do you feed the poor? Do you walk the roads at night to make sure all is safe and no one is hurting each other?
How many Arab countries have developed and sent over a group of men to help maintain peace in a neighboring Arab country in turmoil.
My country isn't perfect and yes we have our share of sick idiots, but THEY GO TO JAIL.
We here have Muslim and Jew and Christian and Hindu working and living side by side, Texas doesn't have to worry about Oklahoma sending missles into that area of our country. Or visa versa.
No country is perfect, but I don't see Syria, Jordan, Arabia, Pakistan and all those countries training men to go over to Iraq and train people to live peacefully, help bring electricity and clean water and build homes for the homeless and walk the streets to keep everyone safe. Maybe while some of the Arabs are counting their oil revenues and making fancy Island resorts maybe some of that money and energy can be spent on an Arab Peace Corps type group?

You brothers have no idea how ^##^*#***^  angry you have made me.
You're like children acting foolish and blaming everyone else for your woes.
And Lucid, I sure appreciate your trying to take a stand on how these other brothers act on here, but I would like to request you settle down to, that is a big sister, auntie type request, stop lowering yourself to their level with sarcastic remarks ok?
I love you all for the sake of ALLAH but that doesn't mean I have to like you all. Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 28, 2009 06:44 PM »

wsalam,

not sure what is going on in this thread but blessedgrandma i suggest you take a break. no one posting in this thread as far as i can tell is living in the united states (except for nuh) and their perspective is just going to be different and never the same as yours.

many people will blame all their problems on the US and especially Obama...that's what the Muslim world does, they can't deal with their own issues or analyze enough to realize all their problems are caused by their own selves. it's a victim mentality and we can't quite get out of it.  it's alot easier to blame it on others.

sure the US has its own problems and wrongs, but so does every other country in the world. the US also has many advantageous and good things over many other countries.

i find the title of this thread very interesting "to hell with obama"... ?? why didn't anyone write "to hell with bush" at one time? why do you expect a president of the united states to do something not in the interest of it's own country?

and it's also the same type of behavior from muslims -- someone doing not what they want so they just condemn them and that's it. no political involvement, no trying to get muslims into the fields of journalism, politics, local gov't , thinktanks. no logical, thought out criticism... article Obama's first days an analysis for muslims...just reactionary arm-chair behavior.

and why do I feel like we've had this argument over and over again?? i doubt we'll be solving the world's political problems here.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 28, 2009 07:34 PM »

Take a brake? Sister, you read my mind, with all the anit US and anti Obama posts this week,
the above was my old american lady, I had enough boys, type post.
I must admit, I did let all this get to me. It just gets old after a while Jannah.
I'm done with this subect. I said my peace and spoke my heart above.
timbuktu
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:19 PM »

 peace be upon you

Quote
many people will blame all their problems on the US and especially Obama...that's what the Muslim world does, they can't deal with their own issues or analyze enough to realize all their problems are caused by their own selves. it's a victim mentality and we can't quite get out of it.  it's a lot easier to blame it on others.

You do us injustice here, jannah.

Sure we have problems. I suggest you read something about what the US has done in the Central and South American countries, not once but many times.

For a start, I suggest you read some:

I - from and about John Perkins

1. New Confessions and Revelations from the World of Economic Hit Men, John Perkins, 2007-03-15.
2. Confessions of an Economic Hitman(Video interview of author, John Perkins [Kinetic Reaction])

3. John Perkins talks about his book with NOW's David Brancaccio (video), 2005-03-04.
4. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions, Interview with Amy Goodman, Democracy Now!, 2004-11-09.
5. In hock to Uncle Sam, The Guardian, Nick Lezard, 2006-02-10.
6. Recipe for empire, New Statesman, March 6, 2006, Paul Kingsnorth
7. The sinister side of U.S. biz; Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins, The Capital Times (Madison, Wisconsin), July 29, 2005, By Judie Kleinmaier
7. Incapable catharsis, The Weekend Australian, February 18, 2006, Matthew Bright
8. Undermining poor nations in the name of profit, The Boston Globe, February 08, 2006, by Michael Langan
9. Conscience, confession from an agent of greed, The Seattle Times, January 22, 2006, Steve Weinberg
10. A hit man repents, The Guardian, 2006-01-28.

11. "John , CPerkins, author Confessions of an Economic Hit Man", Financial Sense Newshour with Jim Puplava, Financial Sense. Retrieved on 9 Jan 09. 
12. "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions", Democracy Now: The war and peace report (9 Nov 04). Retrieved on 9 Jan 09. 
13. Tkacik, Maureen, "The True Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," Boston Magazine, July 2005.

II - and by William Blum, like :

   • 1986: The CIA: A Forgotten History (Zed Books) ISBN 0-86232-480-7
   • 2000: Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower (Common Courage Press) ISBN 1-56751-194-5
   • 2002: West-Bloc Dissident: A Cold War Memoir (Soft Skull Press) ISBN 1-56751-306-9
   • 2003: Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, revised edition (Common Courage Press) ISBN 1-56751-252-6
   • 2004: Freeing the World to Death: Essays on the American Empire (Common Courage Press)

If this is a large list, just read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and "Killing Hope:  U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II"

Quote
sure the US has its own problems and wrongs, but so does every other country in the world. the US also has many advantageous and good things over many other countries.

As you have mentioned elsewhere, the thread has to do with the relationship of US and Muslims outside the US of A. What advantages you have within the US is good for you, we say. What the US is doing to the rest of us, is what is disturbing.

Quote
i find the title of this thread very interesting "to hell with obama"... ?? why didn't anyone write "to hell with bush" at one time? why do you expect a president of the united states to do something not in the interest of it's own country?

To hell with Bush was expressed many a times, not in those words, but far more strongly. As for our expectations about the doings of President of the US, if you think killing innocent civilians in the third world is what the US electorate has given him a mandate for, that is sickening. If you think that this is what will further the interests of the US, then let me assure you, it will be proved wrong, in due course, just as Bush was proved wrong.

Quote
and it's also the same type of behavior from muslims -- someone doing not what they want so they just condemn them and that's it.

Mr Obama promised a new approach to the Muslims of the world, not just to the Muslims within the US. By continuing to bomb innocent civilians, he has not provided an insight into his new approach.

Quote
no political involvement, no trying to get muslims into the fields of journalism, politics, local gov't , thinktanks. no logical, thought out criticism... article Obama's first days an analysis for muslims...just reactionary arm-chair behavior.

And what political involvement do non-resident non-citizens of the US have with the President of the US. He is the Commander in Chief of the US forces, and they are killing Muslims, and you expect us to keep quiet.

Wa ma alaena illal balaghul mubeen
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:30 PM »

He man has only been in office a week, he is not Allah, he is a mere human.
If it is a miracle you seek brother, may I suggest you pray to Allah about it.
I'm not an Obama fan, I wasn't a fan of either canidate,
but we all in every part of the world seem to be especting to much to soon.
And from a mere mortal.
timbuktu
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:32 PM »

peace be upon you

He can order a stop to drone attacks until a review.

His Secretary of Defense says the drone attacks will continue.

So where is the new approach: More killing of civilians in our part of the world.
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:45 PM »

salaam

Yah I dont know why they want to continue with old administrations policies on attacking Pakistan by air strikes. Air strikes have proven again and again to fail and mostly kill civilians.  I thought he said he would take another approach on how to deal with pakistan. He has said something about money.
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:49 PM »

wsalam,

true bg (blessedgrandma) but why should anyone expect anything from him except the american people that voted for him. they know why they voted for him and they should hold him to any promises he made to them. as for anyone else they have no right to be especially upset at him for not doing what they want, (outside of being regularly upset over the choices any leader makes.)

a "new approach to muslims". yes he does have one, because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not exist.

as for the "US is killing us and it's our right to speak out"... who is killing who? any injustice or killing any country does is nothing compared to what muslims do to themselves. again we have the blame reaching outward... it's the kaffirs who did this to us...they are the ones that are evil in this world...we are the innocent victims... it's this obl/bush view of the world "us versus them". "if you're not with us, you're against us." this is not right, it's not reality and it isn't islam.

who gassed and killed, and oppressed millions of his own people before the world believing it was doing them a favor intervened. if he had been stopped before do you think they would have had world support to do that? which two countries killed millions of people over a fight for land? who supported the taliban and their oppressive practices, who supported the US invasion. who supports the state of israel for that matter and does _absolutely nothing_ while they are being butchered. which countries don't even question their practice of torture and eliminating dissidents. how much are you going to blame the united states for before you realize the muslim world is fully complicit in these evils.

again it's not a US versus the Muslim world. that is not what's going on in the world. that's just a blind hatred to the united states without any reality. anyone who thinks that is totally wearing blinders. there's no way to make a blind person see.


Blessedgrandma
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:52 PM »

Can some of you post links to news stories of this?
I too will try to find some, Between illness (over now) and other uhmmm situations in my life
recently, I admit I am ignorant of the total situation, are they targeting Taliban members in the mountains?
Sorry for my ignorance.
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 28, 2009 08:58 PM »

I think all of us should go out today and all this week and try to do something nice and kind for another soul.
Make the changes we can and pray to Allah for changes we cannot make.
Allah knows best and nothing happens without his allowing it to happen.
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