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Author Topic: Leave the judgement to Allah ? (the spin off topic)  (Read 2909 times)
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Hard2Hit
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« on: Feb 09, 2009 09:23 AM »


Salaams,

How many times did you have these statements thrown at you: "leave it for Allah to judge" and ... "dont judge me"

I think Muslims very easily adopted that statement from outsiders and started splashing it on every Abdul they argue with.

If only Allah can judge, then why do we have judges in games and courts? bebzi Okay, seriously though, we do have qazi(s) to judge, and others can also tell whether any specific action done by someone is right or wrong.

I think its only the ultimate end of any person, on judgement day, that we can not judge. But... if the person died while shouting slogans against Allah, Rasool (pbuh) or Islam, so loud that everyone heard him clearly without any doubt, and he died on the spot... dont you think that he can be judged then?

Kindly help me judge.

Wasalam.

The knight doesn't wait when he's ill or has cancer brother, the knight fights on... He finds a strategy, changes tactics, and hits hard.
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 09, 2009 10:43 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum  bro

I just knew that FB thread was going to have a spin off thread of its own..... bro


Quote
..dont you think that he can be judged then?


One thing I don't understand here is *why* there is a need to judge?


Trying to put myself on the other side, do we actually mean 'condemn' when we say 'judge' as Muslims?


Perhaps the question should, therefore, be...don't you think that he can be 'codemned'?


Perhaps that's why people react badly and say...don't 'judge' me?



Interesting topic H2H, jazakhallah khair for posting it. It'd be interesting to see what other people's views are.





Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 09, 2009 01:56 PM »

salam

While we may think that there is no need to judge, our behaviour and survival kinda requires that we screen other people.

would you marry someone that put some very suspicious pics on FB.  Would you even hire a babysitter if you knew about his/her shady behaviour. and so on ...

I used to think that I should not judge, but if someone is consistently doing something you start associating the behaviour with that person. 

wassalam
 
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 09, 2009 04:33 PM »

salam

I think that when people get all uppity about others judging them, what they actually mean, is do not censor my behaviour, do not point out I am transgressing, because if transgressiopns are not censored, then they slowly become the norm, and then people can do exactly as they want, and look how far that got the people of Ad.



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 09, 2009 05:24 PM »

salaam,

Uppitty eh. I also think that sometimes those "judging " are acting under some self riteous moral code that they think everyone should abide by. Granted, I'm not saying that any of you are that way. I'm just saying. Judge if you must, but noone has the right to condemn anyone and noone has the right to think that they are in any way better than anyone else. Trust me, none of us are angels. To each his own. If you want to help someone, there are better ways to do so.

I'm glad this got spun off H2H Smiley Jazakallah.

I'm sure this will get people spinning. (this is my way of replying but not replying to that FB thread again:))


ahh the irony. the random quote posted here today is : Random Quote: The person I like most is the one who points out my defects - Umar (radiAllahu anhu)

But alas, none of us are sahabi...we'd prefer not to have our defects noted Smiley

peace and love
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 09, 2009 06:57 PM »

wsalam,

There is a big difference between an Islamic court of law and "facebook" or whatever else.

FIRST, you will notice even in Islamic law you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. I can't say that for us in daily life. We make judgments and condemn people left and right without proof of anything except speculation.

Secondly in a court of law each side gets their day in court. One side may accuse and condemn but the other has the right to come back and defend and explain or prove otherwise. Note the story of Prophet Dawud and the sheep:

One day, as David was praying in his prayer niche, he ordered his guards not to allow anyone to interrupt him, but two men managed to enter and disturb him. "Who are you?" he asked. One of the men said: "Do not be frightened. We have a dispute and have come for your judgment." David said: "What is it?" The first man said: "This is my brother, he has ninety nine sheep, and I have one. He gave it to me but took it back." David, without hearing from the other party said: "He did you wrong by taking the sheep back, and many partners oppress one another, except for those who are believers."

The two men vanished like a cloud, and David realized that they were two angels sent to him to teach him a lesson. He should not have passed a judgment without hearing from the opposing party.

Almighty Allah told us of this incident: And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrab (a praying place or a private room). When they entered in upon David, he was terrified of them, they said: Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other; therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way."

"Verily, this is my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have only one ewe, and he says: 'Hand it over to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

David said immediately without listening to the opponent: "He has wronged you in demanding your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few."

And David guessed that We have tried him and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned to Allah in repentance. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and as good place of final return Paradise.

O David! Verily! We have placed you as a successor on earth, so judge you between men in truth and justice. And follow not your desire for it will mislead you from the Path of Allah. Verily! Those who wander astray from the Path of Allah shall have a severe torment, because they forgot the Day of Reckoning. (Ch 38:21-26 Quran).



Third, in a court of law the judge is a neutral party. He is not the accuser or the person bringing the complaint. We tend to set ourselves up as judge, jury and executioner all in one.

Fourth, this is the reason why an Islamic court system is set up. If someone is doing something wrong it is the state/court's responsibility to protect society from it. It's not the individual's duty to become some kind of vigilante based upon their particular viewpoints. Each person will have their own personal beliefs of what is going too far or what is wrong, but they are not scholars who know the levels/priority of things along with their punishments or differences of opinions on issues.


Anyway I could go on and cite examples from all those, but anyone who wants to judge I'm going to say be careful. Be careful, lest you be judged on your wrong judgements.
 
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 09, 2009 09:28 PM »

salam

OK I'm not talking about murders and massive dispute resolutions.

I'm talking about cautioning someone if you see them doing something wrong.

And actually yes people do get uppity, isn't the first reaction when one thinks one is being pulled up on ones actions to get defensive, and react in anger?

I don't go to people and make a big thing about whatever it is. Using the facebook example, I've only felt moved to speak out on two occasions, one was one of my sisters, she posted up a picture which quite honestly was utterly ridiculous, she would not have wanted it to get round so I asked her if she thought in all seriousness that was honestly a good idea, given that she had no idea who was on facebook and looking at her page.

The second was a colleague, and I asked him if the link he'd posted on one of his exhibition websites was actually meant to be there, it turned out I was right it wasn't, a student had decided to play a tasteless joke.

Of course I have my own short comings, but I'm talking about sins being committed openly and blatantly, whatever you do in private is between you and Allah, what you do in my face then gets to be my business, I'm not sharing in your sins and the results of them too, so I will try and appeal to your sense of morality first and I never walk in and start hurling accusations ever, then distance myself if I can't. I don't want my girls to grow up in a world of hedonism and no sense of morality or shame, there's a line we don't cross if we do I personally would rather be pulled up about it, the anger never lasts and I do stop and think.

I always find it rather amusing in a twisted way, that it's always the people who are trying to prevent the wrong being held up as the ones in the wrong instead, a classic example was when someone told me it was my fault ex used to hit me, no actually I honestly think if you're doing something wrong it's your fault, one consciously decides to choose the wrong path. Given all other factors, it is always ones own decision to take that first step. I'd rather be shocked into stepping back personally.

At a guess I would say people who go on about judging etc have either had a bad experience with the thought police. eg after Zohr oneday, a sister came up to me to tell me loudly and publicly my salat was completely wrong, for a fraction I felt affronted embarrassed (literally on the verge of tears), and almost positive I would never return, however whilst she was demonstrating the 'correct' way to pray to me it dawned on me that she was probably of the Hanbali school of thought, she didn't listen to me when I quietly told her I prayed according to the hanafi way, according to her teachings there was only one right way, so I let her get on with it and escaped ASAP, I did continue attending afterwards, just regarded the sister as a nutter (yes reader I judged her).

Or and I'm sure there are people out there who would rather their transgressions be normal, so they aren't seen as transgressions, and I'm not prepared to live in a world like that.

Aren't there so many accounts of people who came before us who refused to listen to those who exhorted the right, who transgressed against their souls publicly who were completely wiped from this earth by Allah's wrath?

Like I said I have so many of my own shortcomings BUT I do not want to live in a world where my worst behaviour is normal and acceptable, if you want to judge me do so, however there are ways and there are ways of trying to make people see sense, barreling in and throwing around accusations and promising hellfire etc is not one of them.
After all one does not know how close someone is to Allah from just a snapshot of their life, and I'd rather not have anyone wishing me ill, life is a test enough of its own without having a loads of illwill from people who's feelings I've ridden roughshod over.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2009 05:13 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum  bro

I think there is a marked difference between ‘enjoining good and forbidding evil’ and ‘judging’ someone.

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 10, 2009 05:30 AM »

from my experience the problems are:

1) the guys do the judging or admonishing usually know little about islam or its etiquettes for giving advice.  they are quite often hopeless.

2) the one doing the advising seems to have to incredibly inflated idea that by saying something they can suddenly change the course of somebody's life

3) people talking advice are usually too sensitive.  they get annoyed if you criticize, even if you do it with good intentions.


this is a sign of the times.  i have pretty much given up trying to help "guide people" because it's the most thankless job in the world.  i am not the prophet who the quran warned "you would kill yourself with worry over them..."   i used to "enjoin the good, and prohibit the foul..." a lot when i was in high school and college, but i screwed up too often because my version of islam was too harsh back then, and i didn't appreciate how flexible/liberal islam was.  (as you can see, i am a lot more mellow and relaxed nowadays).

the best thing is just to be nice to people. then gradually you can influence them because they like you very much. 
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 10, 2009 04:31 PM »

Sometimes the manner in which something is said is more important than the content of what is said.

Too often, people who are making and then passing judgements do it with an air of arrogance and a blindness towards their own limitations.  That only makes people defensive, and more defiant in what they're doing.

The point is that there is A LOT of grey. Some people will say, there's nothing wrong with putting up a picture of me with a drink -- no one should make assumptions about what the drink is - assumptions like that are wrong.  Someone else will say -- why put up pictures - pictures are haraam.

Maybe it's not a question of WHERE to draw the line but rather -- HOW to draw the line. 
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 10, 2009 11:18 PM »


Going back to the Facebook thing, why are people putting up pictures of themselves anyway? What's the point? Wherever I've seen it done, even amongst my friends, it seems slightly boastful and most of the time indecent and lacking in haya'. Why would all your contacts on Facebook want to see you posing in a restaurant with a bunch of friends. Why can't you just email the pics to whoever you think would be interested - it amounts to the same time and effort. Or is it just for everyone else to coo over them saying how beautiful or 'buff' you look? As you can tell I've come across loads of these pictures, and sometimes it's hard not to judge. This is not judging in that I'm going up to them and saying 'helloo don't you think that dressing modestly and then striking a provocative pose, putting it up on Facebook and inviting comments (from guys as well as girls) is hypocritical?', it's judging them in my heart and I can't prevent myself from doing that.

Wassalam

By the way, I'm not saying that everyone puts up inappropriate pictures, it's just in my own experience, viewing my friends' photos. There are those who only have girls in their friends lists so only girls view the photos. But in university, that's extremely rare so it's just a fitnah and really really pointless.

Maybe this should have gone in the Facebook thread  Huh?
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 11, 2009 09:45 AM »

salam

My page has pictures of my girls (which inevitably elicits the where are you responses Tongue), and pictures of last summer vacation (where it rained), so lots of scenary and rainbows  Smiley


It's easier to just post the pictures up so everyone can see them instead of emailing to friends individually. Given my current circumstances friends have been worried about me, so it reassures them my girls and I are fine.

I like fb, it's helped me regain contact with friends who I thoguht I'd never hear from again.

And I'm pretty organised on fb, the people I dont want to see my pictures are on limited access and my page is hidden.

I actually like looking at photo albums and seeing my old friends again and its nice to see them having fun, but I dont have people on my friends list who post up thigns I wouldnt want to look at (thank goodness)

Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #12 on: Feb 12, 2009 02:00 PM »

I was listening to some Bob Marley last night...The song 'Could You Be Loved '...:

"...The road of life is rocky and you may stumble too, So while you point your fingers someone else is judging you
Love your brotherman!..."

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« Reply #13 on: Feb 12, 2009 11:18 PM »

Quote
"...The road of life is rocky and you may stumble too, So while you point your fingers someone else is judging you
Love your brotherman!..."

dude u know what they say... when u use 1 finger to point at others, 3 are pointing back at u!
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