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lucid
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« Reply #75 on: Jun 28, 2011 12:27 PM »


Men sort of think excessive education does this to women:
Harry Enfield - Women know your limits




there is really not much one can say to a guy like you.  you do know that Aisha (ra) was one of the most educated people of her time. you do also know that this site was constructed by a very educated woman, and that most of the women on this site are fairly educated.  yet you insult them by telling them their "excess" education has made them fat, distorted and unmarriageable? is that why some of the sisters on this forum were physically abused -- because they are too educated?  

why do you insist on ridiculing and insulting these sisters like this?  if it were my own sister, i would have broken your jaw by now.

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moderatesufi
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« Reply #76 on: Jun 28, 2011 02:16 PM »

*" what is wrong with politically motivated marriages"

I will ask you this question the next time a man proposes to you, and says he is doing so because it will help his political ambitions. And once elected he will uses his political power to serve Islam.

Imagine it, I am not marrying you for your looks, wealth or deen. I am marrying you because your father can help me bet elected.
Very romantic?

I remind you again it is Abu Bakr ra and Umar ra you are talking about. Their Iman was alone is enought to cement their relationship with the Prophet pbh. No further cement was needed.
I really find it hard to comprehend what is blinding you to this insult you are stating against the Prophet pbh and the Sahaba ra. Please repent!

You really don't know the gravity of the accusations you are repeating do you?
Non-Muslims who study Islam see things in this light. Because they disbelieve in our revelation. In Angels coming down from the sky carrying the spoken words of Allah.
Their views of the Prophet's actions are political ambitions devoid of spirituality.
What is spirituality and a perfect example to follow are just political tricks to them.
And Muslims read their books. And write their own using the words of the Kaffir as an example instead of the Quran and Sunnah. Muslims who are embarrassed with Islam and see the western way of life as the perfect example to follow. They state the parts of Islam which contradicts with the western ways were just political ploys used by the Prophet, just as the Kaffir have written in their books of Kufr about Islam. So they state, the Sunnah is not an example to follow when it contradicts with the ways of the white man.

Don't let the Kaffir tell you about our deen.

This is actually a classical way people use to change the deen.
In short it means, the laws of Islam were unique to the Prophet pbh. And he had his own secular reason for following it and ordering it which are not applicable now.

This argument is not unique to polygamy. It is used in every bit of Islam people want to change.

Two examples off the top of my head. Pork and Hijab.
What do Muslims who want to go against these rules say?
Pork was made Harram than because at that time pigs were dirty, they are clean now so it is Hallal.
Hijab at that time was ordered cause it gave women respect, at this time it doesn't so it isn't a obligation any more.
It is the time limiting argument, can be used on any rule of Islam.





*"Muslim men are told if they cannot afford to marry they should fast. Marriage is not all about sex, for you it is obviously, for everyone no it's not the only reason for marriage. "



Yes the man has many duties to his wife. These are given in exchange for her duty towards him. But remember his wife has a duty towards him too, try not to forget that.
And the duty isn't to cook in Dhal, What is it?
What is her duty towards him?


*Mutah

It was Hallal, but then like many other things which were once Hallal like Alcohol. Revelation came forbidding it.

And again, it being forbidden, strengthens the case for polygamy, Not weakens it.
Why?
Excessive Monogamy forces women in to Mutah.
Do these women chose Mutah over marriage or they settle for it because marriage isn't available to them?
If every man marries only one wife, what other option is available to the women left over?





*"Why would illness effect a womans ability to have sex, seriously?"


The woman is usually the more passive partner. Illness just means she is more passive than usual.
Ill and disabled women have as much right to get married as anyone else. you should really be open minded.
Illness doesn't effect a woman's ability to have sex, but it does affect a man's ability.
And Islamicly if a man is Ill which stops him from having sex, the wife can obtain a divorce and in some cases an annulment.
Ulima have allowed such ill women and their husbands to use more permanent methods of birth control for this very reason.


*"Polygyny is allowed, a man who chooses not to practice this is not at all going against Islam, it is there as a right, along with the punishment for abusing the wives rights clearly stated alongside it. "


What goes against Islam is to assume Polygamy = abuse. And that is what people are assuming.

This argument is another way people use to change the deen.
Basicly, the "yes but no" argument where they state Islam contradicts itself.
But truly, Islam never contradicts itself.

Just like the "time limiting argument", it can be used to change any part of Islam.

The rule of equality means, marry more than one, and give them both their rights.
Just as if you married one you need to give her, her rights.
To use rights to say people should avoid polygamy would be like saying rights are why people wouldn't get married at all. It is a crazy argument.

"I don't know of a single woman who wanted to continue with her career when she had children"


If you knew what my wife does, you would want her to continue with her career too.
Don't ask I wont tell.
You might be able to work it out though. You would be right in thinking I am not a fan of women working, but what job do you think even someone like me wouldn't get in the way of a wife's work?





"Stop writing on the internet that your wife is unattractive,"


Do you look down on people you consider not being visually attractive?
That is what it looks like to me.

Have you heard the American word "Sand Niggger"?
They say it is an insult against Arabs, it isn't.
It is an insult to black people and not Arabs.
Why?
It is used against Arabs, assuming the person/people it is said against will take it as an insult. It assumes being black is something so bad, that someone will be offended if compared to one.
So it can only be used by people who see blacks as something very bad. Something so bad that it is a insult to be compared to one.

Barak Obama did something very similar, when he was commenting on sports. Someone made a mistake, and Obama said he should be in the special Olympics.
This hows Obama is a bigot against disabled people. In his views disabled people, even those that have overcome great hurdles to compete in the international arena are something so worthless to be compared to one is an insult.
I would see it as a honour to be compared to someone in the special Olympics, it stands for endurance and overcoming hurdles. But that is because I am not a bigot like Obama.

Now getting back to attractiveness. It is only skin deep, and irrelevant. Get over it!
Marriage is not only for attractive women. It is for all women.
You statements on the subject indicate you assume a woman is only as worth as her looks?
There is much more to women than that.
Men who are unattractive have no issues with it, and are often very successful with women.
Why? Because women are attracted to rich males who can provide. Visual attractiveness of males doesn't really matter much. They want men with degrees, Good jobs etc. In short they want successful men.

And a woman's success and education, isn't really very relevant to men.
They want good looking young girls.

That brings me to:
"What's your point with the video?"

That describes it what I have just said, men's attitudes and the above.
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #77 on: Jun 28, 2011 03:04 PM »

Lucid




"there is really not much one can say to a guy like you."


So why do you keep saying it?
 


"you do know that Aisha (ra) was one of the most educated people of her time."

And what age did she get married?
She didn't delay it to get degrees and promotions did she?
She got married as soon as her periods started.
And that is what I advice Muslim women to do.

"I have never let my learning get in the way of my education.” – Mark Twain

And Muslims parents to do with their daughters.

Or else,
Daughter:"Why don't men want to marry me, look at all the degrees I have!"

The issue is men don't say, "wow, look at the degree on that!"


I have mentioned my wife is educated, more than me or any member of my family and hers and maybe all the women and men here.
I wasn't attracted to her education. In fact, when I found out about it, I was in fact repulsed by it. I married her for her deen, nothing else.
You all see that as an insult to her, some even back biting, I see it as a complement.
The biggest complement!
And there is no bigger complement.


"is that why some of the sistes on this forum were physically abused -- because they are too educated?" 


No sisters here are attacked for the same reason my wife is attacked. And that is for being Muslim. By cowards who will never attempt if they saw me with her.


"i would have broken your jaw by now."

You know, I don't find it hard to believe, that you might try it.
I have always known Muslims who are gentle with the Kaffir to be very harsh with the believer.
I wouldn't do that to you though, I am harsh with the disbeliever and gentle with the believer.
I think I would even let you punch it as hard as you can, and then turn my check to let you break your other fist on my jaw. then laugh at you, without lifting a finger to retaliate.
Because that is the type of person I am, gentle with Muslims, even you. A kaffir on the other hand, would have his hand ripped off for the crime of even contemplating such a foolish action, maybe even his head.
Smiley
So feel free you will be safe with me.
Let it all out.
lol

JustOne

Insert Quote

"dismissing her looks along with her ethnicity. "



Brother As I have repeated many times to many people. Looks and ethnicity are the wrong reasons to marry. Deen is the only reason.
By saying because her looks and ethnicity are not the type I would look for, I am showing just how good her deen is!
That is a complement!
 

"how in the world will you handle 2, or 3, or 4. It's all about sex according to you, and yet you a) find her unattractive, b) plan on marrying a blue-eyed blonde in the next go."

Again, you are putting too much weight on attractiveness.
If I wanted I could have easily married blue eyed blonde type first time if I had wanted.
But I didn't?
Why?
The best women are the ones with the best deen.
Nothing else matters.


" and that you need to get a job "

As mentioned before. I manage. Smiley With a little left over.
If I start working fulltime again, I would have to marry again. Because the money extra money that comes in will be spent.
Smiley

" so I'll just refrain."

Its cool brother
Smiley

 

 akhan

Your argument is the "Yes but no argument" that assumes Allah contradicts Himself.
The Quran doesn't contradict.
The fact we have to be just, is we marry more than one, and give each of them their rights.
It doesn't mean monogamy!
OK, if it did, it would mean the Quran contradicts, which it doesn't.
We have to do justice if we have just one wife, if it was impossible to do justice, then Monogamy would be equally Harram
You know what I find real strange?
Why don't people who use this silly argument ever say people should only have one child?
I am asking all of you lot, why don't you say Islam only allows people to have only one child?
Just as a man with more than one wife has to do justice to them all, a man with more than one child needs to do justice to them all.
As your argument states, if doing so is impossible, does Islam have a one child policy?
Like China?
It clearly doesn't and just as it doesn't, it doesn't have a one wife policy.

The brothers who think I am horrible, should marry more than one wife to prevent women having to make do with men like me.
And all the married sisters should tell their nice, just husbands to take additional wives to protect them from the likes of me.

Lucid, you are the type of feminist you thick women want. Marry four!
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Fozia
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« Reply #78 on: Jun 28, 2011 03:24 PM »

salam


The Quran is not contradictory, it is a guidance and a warning, but only for those who have the eyes, ears and brains to pay heed.

Comparing a family with more than one child is not the same and actually if you've ever interacted with a large family you will notice that a lot of the work falls on the older children, some children are neglected, some are singled out as naughty/good, you will get the parents favourites and the family scapegoat...you'll get that in moderate sized families too etcetcetc.

Br Lucid was talking about the women who are subject to abuse by their husbands, by all intents and purpose men who call themselves muslim, those that sit at home and eat of their wives earnings and beat the crap out of them for cooking desi style dhal for example....


Did you just refer to JO as br?Huh?Huh??  Cheesy Cheesy



Wassalaam
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
moderatesufi
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« Reply #79 on: Jun 28, 2011 04:48 PM »

"The Quran is not contradictory, it is a guidance and a warning, but only for those who have the eyes, ears and brains to pay heed."

Yes and the Quran doesn't forbid it. In fact it says it is allowed.
It remind us of justice.
Something which we need to apply to all issues, not just polygamy.

And comparing a family to polygamy is all what it is about.
Because that is what it is, a family.
What you have listed, about families where some children are treated better than others is an example of parents going against Allah and his Prophet pbh.
What they do is injustice, and like every injustice they will be questioned about it.

People should have many children. Saying so, isn't saying they should do injustice.
They should have many children, and give each all of their rights.
So it is completely crazy to assume telling people to have more than one wife is telling them to do injustice.
They should have more than one, and give all of them their rights.

The fact that Allah made it Hallal and injustice is Harram means it is possible to do justice. For all except the people who willing and knowingly do injustice.
We don't interpret the Quran in light of western enlightenment. We interpret it in light of the Sunnah. Which confirms it is Hallal by the very fact the Prophet pbh our best example did it.
And again, we don't interpret the Sunnah in light of western enlightenment. We interpret it in how it was followed by the sahaba. The best generation, and the people whose mistakes were corrected by the Prophet pbh himself.
And then we have two more generations to followed, and they too practised polygamy. and then we have had every generation of Muslims since then, including this one. And The nations and tribes practice it. The only people who are against it, are white kaffir who don't have anything against fornication and adultery as a substitute to it. And the Muslims that choose to follow these white Kaffir instead of the Quran and Sunnah, or choose to interpret the Quran in a way pleasing to White Kaffir.





Did you just refer to JO as br?Huh?Huh??  Cheesy Cheesy

Wassalaam

No, but Inshallah, one day he will be.
Smiley
He is a good guy, and Allah might guide him if Allah wants.
He has done a lot of good work improving the diet and health of our children.
Inshallah, Allah will guide him to Islam as a reward.
Smiley

--
Oh sorry, you mean Justone, I thought you meant Jamie Oliver.
Yep just one is a sis.
My bad.

But anyway, All you sisters including just one should tell your husbands to take additional wives.
If you have married, good just husbands, you should want for your sisters what you want for yourselves.
Smiley
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JustOne
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« Reply #80 on: Jun 28, 2011 05:16 PM »

You are comparing having wives to having kids? Um ok. Why didn't Allah say that you should only have 4 kids or only 4 per wife?

If you are so worried about these unwed sisters - please brother do your part and bring more disbelievers to Islam so they may wed our Sisters.

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moderatesufi
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« Reply #81 on: Jun 28, 2011 05:48 PM »

Before that verse was revealed, including the times of previous Prophets people were allowed as many wives as they wanted.

So you recognise four wives are allowed?
Great. 4 doesn't equal 1.
In the Christian trinity 3=1, but in Islamic marriage 4 doesn't equal one.
So remember that, Allah has allowed four.
And the comparison stays, Kids have to be treated equally and so should wives.
Every injustice is repaid in full.
Smiley
Well, I do my bit and so do a lot of people.
It is just female are more responsive to dawa.
We need polygamy for our sisters for a different reason to why people in Muslim countries need it.
For them it is America and other armies of dejal slaughtering Muslim brothers. While for us, it is because the much greater number of sisters converting to Islam than brothers.
I don;t go out for the purpose of talking to women, if anything i try and avoid it.
But I find much more women ask me about Islam than men.
And they are usually more responsive.
The statistics show this, here it is 3-4 women for every man and in France it is far greater.
Does converting to Islam mean a life time of loneliness?
And will it mean exchanging companionship for loneliness when it comes to women married to Kaffir men who they will have to leave when they convert and their Husbands don't?
These are real issues. Polygamy is needed, because the alternative is Harram.
Allah guides who he wills, it isn't the dawa careers who decide that Women should be more responsive to dawa than men, Allah guides who he wills.

---
Oh yah
All of you who are anti polygamy.
What is your solution then?
You keep attacking me for mine.
But what would you say to sisters you refuse to share your husbands with?


Be Lonely, patient and sad?
Do Harram, by committing Zina?
Become Iranian and do Mutta?
Commit kufr by marrying a Kaffir?
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jannah
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I heart the Madina


WWW
« Reply #82 on: Jun 28, 2011 06:37 PM »

wsalam,

Ok everyone so this is what happens when I get sick!! U kids ;0  oldshaykh  I just realized this topic is actually one of those 'banned topics' so if we can't discuss it civilly I have no problem closing it.

I think we can exchange ideas here in an adult like manner, can we not? There's no need for insults or threats or making things too personal. Let's stick to ideas in a general way. We may disagree with someone but it is probably true that there are other ppl that think like them too and there are other impressionable younger people reading the board that may be inclined to think like them as well. So it is good for us to add our views here calmly, gently and with evidence, both men and women so ppl hear the diverse views of muslims on this subject.

If you feel you're unable to do that without getting upset, insults etc. there are like a ton of other threads you could contribute to!!

ok the end and make dua for my cold/flu in the middle of summer :'(

ws

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Fozia
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« Reply #83 on: Jun 28, 2011 09:15 PM »

salam



Why should anyone encourage anyone to have more than one wife.

Monogamy is Halal, you want to practice polygyny that's your own concern.

Mind your own business when it comes to other brothers who are clearly living a halal deeny life with just one wife! They clearly know their limits and feel it is with one wife, they are not wrong, nor are they at fault in the eyes of Allah.

Why are you making haram what Allah has made permissable, ie monogamy, is halal, the Prophet (saw) practiced it himself! It says in

Quote
(4:3) If you fear that you might not treat the orphans justly, then marry the women that seem good to you: two, or three, or four. If you fear that you will not be able to treat them justly, then marry (only) one

One wife is halal, monogamy is halal.

Most people I know, men and women, are able to restrain themselves and don't go around fornicating with gay abandon. I find it rather worrying that your experience appears entirely the opposite!


By the way the political marriage thing, the marriage of Aisha (RA) and Umm Hafsa (ra) did not further political gains, it cemented a friendship into family ties, a major thing for Arab tribes, there's more than one definition of political and politics! Personally I would be happy to marry a man my father loved so much who was righteous and kind, with whom friendship ties would forever be cemented thro marriage. Whats wrong with that?


And Sr Jannah May Allah give you shifaa.

Wassalaam
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
moderatesufi
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« Reply #84 on: Jun 28, 2011 09:39 PM »


Why should anyone encourage anyone to have more than one wife.



This has been asked over and over again, and has been answered over and over again.

Why?
Because it is needed.
Some of the excessive women, left over when every single man takes a single wife, prefer to remain lonely and bitter.
But others would prefer to marry.
For that to happen, more men need to take more than one.


Monogamy is Halal, you want to practice polygyny that's your own concern.

Your statement right back at you.
Polygyny is Hallal, you want to practice celibacy that's your own concern.

Mind your own business when it comes to other brothers who are clearly living a halal deeny life with just one wife! They clearly know their limits and feel it is with one wife, they are not wrong, nor are they at fault in the eys of Allah.

Yours statements back at you again:

Mind your own business when it comes to other sisters who are clearly living a halal deeny life with another wife! They clearly know their limits and feel it is with another wife, they are not wrong, nor are they at fault in the eyes of Allah.

Why are you making haram what Allah has made permissable, ie monogamy, is halal, the Prophet (saw) practiced it himself! It says in
Your statements right at you:

Why are you making haram what Allah has made permissible, ie Polygamy, is halal, the Prophet (saw) practised it himself! It says in

And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

There was a bit before the rule. Don't truncate it. Doing so changes its meaning.
Smiley
One wife is halal, monogamy is halal.

One/two/three/four wife/wives is/are halal, Polygamy is halal.

Most people I know, men and women, are able to restrain themselves and don't go around fornicating with gay abandon. I find it rather worrying that your experience appears entirely the opposite!
your statement right at you!

There are a lot of people I/you know, men and women, are not able to restrain themselves and do go fornicating with gay abandon. I find it rather worrying that you refuse to to recognise them. Some of these women do Mutta, others do adultry and some do even worse, they "marry" Kaffir men and lose their Islam.



There aren't enough females for every man to have four. There aren't even enough for every man to have two.
But there aren't enough men for every woman to have one.
Recognise this fact.
This isn't the reason why Polygamy is Hallal.
Polygamy is Hallal because Allah kept it Hallal for us, in the Quran and didn't forbid it.
That is enough.
The reason why more men should do it is there are more women than men. In some countries men are killed by Kaffir, and in countries with no war, more women convert to Islam than men.
So it needs to happen.
Or Harram stuff happens. And when does, and everyone take a look at the Jew cybersex thread.

http://jannah.org/madina/index.php?topic=5403.0
When a Muslim woman marries a Jew, people say don't judge her, you don't know her situation.
Well, maybe she couldn't find a Good Single Muslim guy.
So marrying a Jew wasn't her only alternative to remaining single, lonely and bitter.
She could have shared a Husband with some lady who is married to a good Muslim guy.
You might say well all the single ones are rubbish, but if married ones are options to, there must be some out there who are good?
At least better than the cyber sexing Jew? Who also happens to be one of the biggest enemies of Islam, and an ultra Zionist.
Remember that, we are not talking about a Non-Zionist, we are talking about one of the neo-con kill all Muslim types.
That is what she married and people were saying, Don't judge her!
But that doesn't matter. His Kufr was enough. And marrying Kaffir is not an option.
Polygamy is!
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Fozia
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« Reply #85 on: Jun 28, 2011 10:00 PM »

salam


Your post makes no sense.

I'm not forbidding polygyny I am not making polygyny haram at all (and its polygyny your talking about by the way, polygamy is when both men and women take many spouses). I have never said that in any of my posts, I have not condemned anyone who has chosen this way of life either, you on the other hand are pronouncing Muslim brothers and sisters in monogamous marriages as being unislamic as somehow going against the laws of Allah. Which is not the case.

You are the one who thinks the point of marriage is only sex, that men and women are unable to control themselves, I've not said that at all, I know many people who are content with one wife, who are content to wait till they find a spouse. Apparently this is a foriegn concept for you.
No idea what you mean by right back at you, I accept I dont know a single person who is unable to control themselves or is either engaged in illicit affairs or has several wives, I actually no neither of these sort of people with whom you appear intimately acquainted.
You keep very bad company if the people you associate with behave like animals because they are discontent with one wife or unable to wait to marry.

No my quote doesn't change the meaning at all of the verse I quoted.


You have no argument.

Nobody here has said Polygyny is anything other than permissable, you seem to think monogmay is a big bad western concept! It's not!

Why should a man who is content with one wife for whatever his reasons be told to have four wives, you think you will make a fantastic husband to four wives, well that's your own personal opinion and you will answer to Allah. Those brothers in monogamous marriages clearly know their own limits and fear Allah too.
That is where you should mind your own business. I have not inferred anything about sisters living in polygynous marriages, that's utterly their own business, I have not at all in any of my posts said the sisters should get divorced or demand their husbands divorce co-wives. You on the other hand keep ranting that men should marry four wives and must marry four wives otherwise they're not following their deen. You're telling brothers on the board to marry four wives, mind your own business!

Do read your posts.



Wassalaam





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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #86 on: Jun 29, 2011 11:50 AM »

Let's break it down

I say:

Marriage = strongly recommended, encouraged
Polygany = simply permissible, with a hefty condition attached

I refer you to Br.Khalid's post

You say:
Marriage = strongly recommended, encouraged
Polygany = ? what exactly?

Fill in the blanks, and then please provide me with proof.  Try to avoid garbled opinions on how marriage is all about sex, and that muslim women don't need to be attractive because that is haraam and a western concept, and having wives is like having children, and any of the other of the nonsense you keep going on about, unless you can back it up with fact.  

Wasalaam.

P.S. I don't think anyone has said they are anti-polygamy - in spite of how they may personally feel about it, so please stop accusing us of being "apologists".
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« Reply #87 on: Jun 29, 2011 09:36 PM »

Now, i like Sister JustOne's approach to the discussion in regards to her last post.  Just be straight forward with facts and let others come to the conclusions themselves.  Using accusatory language doesn't help much unless they are legitimate accusations.
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« Reply #88 on: Jul 02, 2011 09:46 AM »


"You are the one who thinks the point of marriage is only sex, "


Marriage is the only hallal way to have sex.


"that men and women are unable to control themselves"


Some can't. When they can't and people like me condemn them in Kaffir countries. Or punish them in Muslim countries.
Do people like you say, "don't judge them, you don't know their situation!"








"who are content to wait till they find a spouse."

Yes, but when every man takes just one wife, they will never ever be able to find one will they?
You might know many who are willing to wait, how many do you know who are willing to be celibate?
So unless some of:
"I know many people who are content with one wife, "

Take more than one, Some of:

"who are content to wait till they find a spouse."

Will have to wait their whole lives, and they are never ever going to get one.
Because they are all take.



"Apparently this is a foriegn concept for you."

Yes it is. I don't believe in celibacy.
That is because I don't just blame a few homosexuals for why catholic priests rape boys. I blame their entire institute of celibacy.
I believe celibacy is to blame for that and nuns getting pregnant and killing their babies straight after birth.
I don't believe celibacy works.
And if men don't start practising polygamy, more and more Muslim women will have to practice celibacy. As I said, I don't believe celibacy works.

 

"I accept I dont know a single person who is unable to control themselves or is either engaged in illicit affairs or has several wives, I actually no neither of these sort of people with whom you appear intimately acquainted."

You have been living a very sheltered life, haven't you?
Sin happens. Admit it.
Yes few people would have illicit affairs in front of you, or go up to you to tell you about it.
But sometimes when something is so common, you don't notice it at all, even if it happens all around you.


"You keep very bad company if the people you associate with behave like animals because they are discontent with one wife or unable to wait to marry."

Yes, here is where your contradictions come out!
In the beginning you say:
"I'm not forbidding polygyny"
And now you say,
" if the people you associate with behave like animals because they are discontent with one wife or unable to wait to marry."

Are you seriously telling me you can't see the contradiction in your statements?





"No my quote doesn't change the meaning at all of the verse I quoted."

Look harder.




"Nobody here has said Polygyny is anything other than permissable,"

Please scrole up.
Smiley
If you can't be bothered to read what others have written, read your last post.
What you are saying is a "Yes, but no".
 




 "you seem to think monogmay is a big bad western concept!"

That is because it is a big bad western concept.
Invented by the idolatrous Romans, to support their Zina loving lifestyle.
They made it to increase the number of prostitutes by reducing the prospect of marriage.

And when Christianity moved westwards, it plagiarised this, just as it plagiarised the legality of pork and the trinity.
And now some Muslims want to plagiarise monogamy from the white skinned masters!
Assuming these trinity worshippers are an example to be followed when we have Mohummed pbh, the best of Example.
And we have the example of the Sahaba and every Muslim generation since.
But all this is ignored, and the kaffir emulated.



"Why should a man who is content with one wife for whatever his reasons be told to have four wives,"

Because there are Muslim women, who need husbands, but can't find them.



"you think you will make a fantastic husband to four wives,"
Not 4!
2, yes, maybe even 3, but not four!

If you think I would be a terrible husband to 4, tell the brothers who would be good husbands to four to marry four, whether they want to or not.
Smiley
 


"Those brothers in monogamous marriages clearly know their own limits and fear Allah too."

There limits are four, not one.
Remind them of that.
Smiley
Limits are set by Allah, not white faced Christians.


"You're telling brothers on the board to marry four wives, mind your own business!"


Yes brothers marry four!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Four!!!!!!!!!
If not four, then 3
if not 3 then 2!


Just one:



"Marriage = strongly recommended, encouraged
Polygany = simply permissible, with a hefty condition attached"


Again. you repeat the same mistake, by making a distinction between the first marriage and all subsequent ones.
Marriage is marriage, whether it is the first, second, third or forth.

"Marriage = strongly recommended, encouraged"
Covers, 2nd, 3rd and forth as much as it does first. Don't forget that. And remember, what is 2nd,3rd and 4th for the man is always the only marriage for a woman.
For every woman to do the strongly recommended, some men will have to do it more than once. Because their are more women than men.

The:
" with a hefty condition attached"
conditions, doesn't only apply to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th marriage, it applies to the first.
Marriage has conditions.
And wives have rights. in marriage we fulfil their rights, whether we have one, two, three or fore.
There aren't some new hidden rights that need to be invented for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th marriage. The rights that need to be applied there equally existed with the 1st.




"You say:
Marriage = strongly recommended, encouraged
Polygany = ? what exactly?"


Should I repeat myself?
Marriage is strongly recommended!
2nd, 3rd and 4th are in no way any less of a marriage than the 1st!
You have been brainwashed by the white Christians who regard the first as legitimate and the others aren't.
It isn't polygamy that has hefty conditions. It is marriage, all the conditions that exist for 2,3 and 4 existed for 1!
You are trying to use the rights of the wife to make Hallal harram. If that was the case, the first marriage would be equally Harram. Because the first wife has all the rights second, third and forth has, rights you call hefty.


"P.S. I don't think anyone has said they are anti-polygamy - in spite of how they may personally feel about it, so please stop accusing us of being "apologists"."


Wow, Fozia managed a contradiction in a single message, you managed one in a single sentence!
You are using the "yes, but no argument"

Polygamy is marriage, and marriage is recommended. Get over it!
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um aboodi
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« Reply #89 on: Jul 02, 2011 01:38 PM »

salam


Note to moderator:

I don't see the point of  this issue being continually discussed with such lack of civility.  Does anybody??

I think that closing this thread and removing all offending material would be a wise step. 

It would not be considered censor to do so, rather it would be censure. 

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« Reply #90 on: Jul 02, 2011 04:54 PM »

wsalam,

I think 6 pages of debate on a banned topic is probably enough. I'll close this thread this evening inshaAllah so everyone say what they have to say!!!  oldshaykh
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lucid
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« Reply #91 on: Jul 02, 2011 06:59 PM »

so mr moderatesufi, if polygamy is so great, why was the prophet monogamous in the golden years of this youth -- his first 25 years of marriage?

why did he ask ali (ra) not marry again while fatima (ra) was his wife?

and finally, if you are so good looking.  why don't you post "honest to God" pictures of yourself for all of us to see.  if it's true, maybe it'll help you fulfill your purpose of being on this site -- finding someone to join your harem.

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moderatesufi
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« Reply #92 on: Jul 02, 2011 07:28 PM »

so mr moderatesufi, if polygamy is so great, why was the prophet monogamous in the golden years of this youth -- his first 25 years of marriage?

That is a very silly comment isn't it?
That is sort of like say, we should all be single, because the first 25 years of his life he was single?
Well everyone is single, before they get married. And All men married to more than one are married to just one before they marry a second.
Very silly comment!

Just as the first 25 years of his life was before Islam, and revelation  and cannot be used as dalal, the first 15 years of his marriage were pre-Islam too.
At least try and get your maths right before you bring up irrelevant things?

why did he ask ali (ra) not marry again while fatima (ra) was his wife?

This is something which Christian missionaries bring up to slander our Prophet pbh and get Muslims to convert to Cross worship, trinity worship, and Human worship.
It doesn't surprise me you have come out with such a deviant argument, I sort of expected you take your Islam from that direction.
And if you can actually quote what the Prophet pbh said to Ali ra, that would make things absolutely clear.
But I see you haven't done that.
Why?
Because doing so will show the fallacy of your arguments.
The Daughter of Allah's messenger and the daughter of the enemy of Allah can not be in the same household!
Whose daughter was he going to marry!

and finally, if you are so good looking.  why don't you post "honest to God" pictures of yourself for all of us to see.  if it's true, maybe it'll help you fulfill your purpose of being on this site -- finding someone to join your harem.

LUCID!!!
I am telling you this once and for all.
Do not make me repeat myself in this!
For once and for all,
You are not my type!
sorry... .. .
No hard feelings?




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pearl
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« Reply #93 on: Jul 02, 2011 09:07 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Troll (Internet) (from Wikipedia)

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory ..., extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response ... or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion...

***********

'Nuff said.
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lucid
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« Reply #94 on: Jul 02, 2011 09:09 PM »


That is a very silly comment isn't it?
That is sort of like say, we should all be single, because the first 25 years of his life he was single?
Well everyone is single, before they get married. And All men married to more than one are married to just one before they marry a second.
Very silly comment!


you are hilarious.  monogamous -- means having 1 wife, ok?  he was monogamous during the first 25 years of married life.  only after Khadijah (ra) died, did he become polygamous.

Quote
Just as the first 25 years of his life was before Islam, and revelation  and cannot be used as dalal, the first 15 years of his marriage were pre-Islam too.
At least try and get your maths right before you bring up irrelevant things?

why do presume your maths is better than mine?  lol.

Quote
It doesn't surprise me you have come out with such a deviant argument, I sort of expected you take your Islam from that direction.

you really do dislike me!  but, how did you come up with the "lucid is a crap muslim?"  do you honestly believe that?  lol.

Quote
LUCID!!!
I am telling you this once and for all.
Do not make me repeat myself in this!
For once and for all,
You are not my type!
sorry... .. .
No hard feelings?

dude are you gay!? wow you are gross!  you want 4 wives. My God, what else do you want?

since you didn't post a picture, you are either a fake or quite possibly seriously deluded.

and dude, don't ever try hitting on a guy on this forum.  that's just gross.
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« Reply #95 on: Jul 02, 2011 10:37 PM »

"how did you come up with the "lucid is a crap muslim?"

You can translate my statements any which way you want. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of your statements are including the one that last statement related to are regurgitated  missionary attacks against Islam.

Our Prophet PBH didn't tell people to restrict themselves to one wife, neither did the sahaba or people who came after them.
It wasn't Muslims who made up the statements you use, and it wasn't you yourself by looking at the text.
It was missionaries, and some, such as you use their attacks to form an Islam acceptable to those that hate it.

When we tell them, they worship their priests and rabbis, by making Harram what Allah made Hallal. And they ask for examples, polygamy is a perfect example I show them.
As something allowed in their bible but forbidden by their priests.
A perfect example to show them their road to hell fire.
But some use these people of hell fire, these Jews and Christians who have rejected their books and prophets as as an example to follow above our Quran and our Prophet pbh.


You mock my statement about four wives, knowing that is the number the Quran has made lawful. And that is the number married by many of the Sahaba. But it is Islam you mock, but something has blinded you to it.

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« Reply #96 on: Jul 02, 2011 11:36 PM »

Asalaamu Alaikum bro

Quote
Marriage is marriage, whether it is the first, second, third or forth.



2nd, 3rd and 4th are in no way any less of a marriage than the 1st!


Polygamy is marriage, and marriage is recommended.


All of the above statements are inaccurate.


Brother, please take heed of this sincere advice and go and talk to a scholar as to why polygamy is not recommended in Islam and only classed as permissible because it is clear from your posts that you do not understand the fiqh surrounding this issue.












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Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
lucid
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« Reply #97 on: Jul 03, 2011 01:44 AM »

You can translate my statements any which way you want. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of your statements are including the one that last statement related to are regurgitated  missionary attacks against Islam.

Our Prophet PBH didn't tell people to restrict themselves to one wife, neither did the sahaba or people who came after them.
It wasn't Muslims who made up the statements you use, and it wasn't you yourself by looking at the text.
It was missionaries, and some, such as you use their attacks to form an Islam acceptable to those that hate it.

so now you think i'm a missionary? lol...lol^2...lol^3...

there are people on this board like jannah who know who i am in real life...and dude, they would have broken my legs by now if i was a missionary...

however, nobody knows who you are...

Quote
When we tell them, they worship their priests and rabbis, by making Harram what Allah made Hallal. And they ask for examples, polygamy is a perfect example I show them.
As something allowed in their bible but forbidden by their priests.
A perfect example to show them their road to hell fire.
But some use these people of hell fire, these Jews and Christians who have rejected their books and prophets as as an example to follow above our Quran and our Prophet pbh.

dude you kindof have it backwards...it's (mostly) making halal what was haram (i.e. doing stuff on the sabbath and other stuff) that they were condemned for. and man are you trying to make something super-halal/mustahab/super-liked what according to many interpretations is just barely permissible except in special circumstances.  and by the way, no muslim here what Allah has made halal.  you are the one make these crazy accusations.

you are the one playing with fire -- and if you transgress Allah's limits -- well,...,good luck...!

Quote
But it is Islam you mock, but something has blinded you to it.

i think most muslims would say it is you who are making a mockery of islam.  don't you have any fear of Allah, that you might be wrong?  that all these people who are telling you that you are wrong, have a valid point?
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« Reply #98 on: Jul 03, 2011 01:57 AM »

OK The End. Thanks for participating everyone.

Wsalam
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