// Why not ban full veil? says French government spokesman
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salaampeaceshalom
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« on: Jun 19, 2009 07:37 PM »


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/19/veil-burka-france-muslim-women

France's ability to reconcile secularism with religious diversity came under fresh scrutiny today after the government said it would not rule out banning Muslim women from wearing the full Islamic veil.

Five years after a law was passed forbidding children from wearing the headscarf or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in schools, the government indicated it was prepared to wade into another thorny row over the state's right to tell individuals what not to wear.

Speaking after a group of MPs requested an inquiry into the "degrading" use of the burka and niqab, government spokesman Luc Chatel said it was important to establish to what extent women's rights were being compromised by the garments.

"If it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles, naturally parliament would have to drawn the necessary conclusions," he said. When asked whether that could mean bringing in legislation to ensure an outright ban, Chatel answered: "Why not?"

Although there are no official figures, several thousand women are believed to wear the full veil in France, and their appearance has long caused consternation among the upholders of the country's staunchly secular values. Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services found she wore a burka and was living "in total submission" to her husband.

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."

For a ban to be implemented, an investigation would first have to be opened and its results studied for any sign of incompatibility between secular values and the use of the full veil. President Sarkozy, who recently defended France's division between the state and religion during a press conference with Barack Obama, is understood to be in favour of the issue being explored.

Sarkozy's leftwing urban policies secretary, herself a Muslim and former president of a women's rights group, today gave her support to "a total ban" on the burka. "I am for the banning of this coffin which kills basic freedoms," Fadela Amara told Le Parisien newspaper. "This debate has to clear the way to a law which protects women."

This point of view, however, is not shared by everyone. Muslim leaders have urged politicians not to create more tension between communities.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaouni, head of the French Council for the Muslim Faith. He said the full veil remained a marginal choice for most Muslim women, and such a provocative move threatened to alienate those more moderate in their practices.

His plea for the motion to be left alone was echoed by the immigration minister, Eric Besson, who said that, since 2004, France had "managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question".

'If he woke up and had enough food for the day and shelter (a roof over his head) and he does not fear for his safety, then it is as if he has been given the dunya.'
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 21, 2009 11:42 PM »

Asalamuaalikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


Coincedentally, I was reading about the history of Islamic Judges and Courts, and it is mentioned that the Qadi or judge used to have his hearing in the Masajid.  However, they realized that this made it difficult for women, Chirstians, and Jews, to come to the judge, and it was unfair towards them.  So for this reason, they created courthouses where are religions and people could have fair access to the legal system.

This is the religious tolerance Islam teaches and it is a gift that it has given to the world.


Another point I read about was about the noble scholar Ibn Khaldun, the founder of the science of sociology and history.  He states that civilizations will succed if they are just and fair, and they will falter and decline once they begin to oppress and practice injustice.


May Allah protect the believers from the persecution of the unjust.


As for covering the face, it is a valid Islamic opinion attributed to Ibn Umar as well as the Shafii and Hanbali schools of Law, and the evidence for it is in the Quran.


And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 23, 2009 07:39 AM »

Sarkozy: burqas are not welcome


France moved closer yesterday to a ban on women wearing full veils in public when the president Nicolas Sarkozy told a historic meeting of politicians at the palace of Versailles that the head-to-toe burqa was “not welcome” in the country.


In a state of the republic speech to deputies and senators, permitted for the first time since 1875 under a recent change to the French constitution, Mr Sarkozy pledged his support for a parliamentary commission of inquiry that observers expect to lead to legislation.



Proposed by the communist mayor of Vénissieux, a town near Lyon with a large immigrant population, the call for an inquiry has won support from the Right and Left. It would consider ways of outlawing dress described by critics as “a form of moving imprisonment”.


The president won warm applause after telling more than 900 politicians it was right for parliament to deal with the issue: “I remain firm that secularism is not the rejection of religion. It is a principle of respect for all religions, all beliefs.


“In our republic, the Muslim religion should be respected as much as any other. The burqa is not a religious problem. It is an issue of the dignity of women.


“It is a sign of subservience, submission. I want to say solemnly that it will not be welcome on our territory.”


Mr Sarkozy said: “We cannot accept in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity.”


The veiling of women has provoked sharp debate in France. In supporting legislation, Mr Sarkozy has underlined differences with the US president, Barack Obama, who said in his recent Cairo speech that his country’s attachment to freedom meant it would not be telling people what to wear.


In France, portrayals of the burqa as a form of oppression usually refer to the one-piece covering used in Afghanistan rather than the garment that is more commonplace in the Gulf and conceals part of the face.


It is thought only a few thousand women in France, out of a total Muslim population of an estimated six million, actually wear it.


Clamour for legislation has arisen five years after a controversial law banned girls from wearing Muslim headwear at school, a restriction that also affects women in public service jobs.


At a time when the French government is banning the wearing of hoods during public demonstrations, because some participants intent on criminal activity use them to avoid identification, opponents of the burqa argue that full head and body coverings harm the cause of integration.


Muslim opinion is divided. The French Council of Muslims (CFCM), the main representative body, has already come out against a commission of inquiry. Mohammed Moussaoui, the president, said a ban offended French principles of freedom, pointing out that the use of the niqab or burqa was, in any case, “rare and extremely marginal” in France.


However, Fadela Amara, the housing minister and a human rights campaigner of Algerian family origins, implied that women were being forced against their will into wearing “this kind of tomb”. She added: “We must do everything to stop burkas from spreading.”


Rama Yade, the Senegalese-born French secretary of state for human rights, said at the weekend she had no objection to legislation outlawing the full veil. She told Europe 1 radio tat France had a duty to act in “defence of our secular
system and the dignity of women”.


“I was elected to represent a Parisian banlieue [suburb]. Previously, in the working-class area where I grew up, I never saw women dressed in burkas,” she said. “Today it’s something you see regularly.”


The president began his speech with an admission that the economic crisis was not over, pledged his government’s commitment to finding solutions designed to help those most at risk and admitted that the country’s “model of integration” no longer worked. “To achieve equality, we must give more to those who have less, using social rather than ethnic criteria,” he said.


The event, broadcast live on television, was boycotted by communist and green deputies and criticised by the opposition Socialist Party, all insisting that it was in conflict with republican principles and amounted to a denial of democracy.


http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090623/FOREIGN/706229801/1002

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« Reply #3 on: Jun 24, 2009 04:57 AM »

Asalamu alaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.


My wife and I were looking at some kitchen items today in a store, and we were about to buy some kitchen knives, but when I looked on the back, it said "France".  I gave them back to the storekeeper.  I told him French products are not welcome in my house, because of their ban on hijab and marginalizing Muslims.  I know what I am saying, since I have several Muslim friends from France.  They told me Muslims are treated like second-class citizens in France.  The storekeeper agreed with me. 

I will never buy French products again, or go there for tourism, inshallah, and I hope all Muslims all over the world do the same.  Together, we can make our voice heard. 



And Allah knows best.

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« Reply #4 on: Jun 24, 2009 07:01 PM »

I cannot believe a president of a country with 5-10% Muslims would be so racist. It's just unbelievable. I wish there was something French I could stop buying. Muslims should do a full out ban. Especially all those rich khaleejis who keep buying jean paul gaultier or whatever haute couture that comes out of French fashion houses. If the French want to decide what women should wear, Muslims the world over should not wear anything that comes out of France.
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 24, 2009 07:47 PM »

I cannot believe a president of a country with 5-10% Muslims would be so racist. It's just unbelievable. I wish there was something French I could stop buying. Muslims should do a full out ban. Especially all those rich khaleejis who keep buying jean paul gaultier or whatever haute couture that comes out of French fashion houses. If the French want to decide what women should wear, Muslims the world over should not wear anything that comes out of France.


Sister,here in Turkey we have tried all of boycotts,Italy,Franch and last Denmark...but does not work..., i think the invasion is inside the minds that muslims still keep on supporting the others who hate on Islam...we should stsrt from education reclearing the minds for ending the occupation...

ws...


Sincerely yours,

Suleyman Goksel SOYLU,
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 25, 2009 06:30 AM »

Asalamualaikum dear brother Sulayman:

All praise be to Allah.



Yes, boycotting is a means that can help us accomplish our goal, yet we need a comprehensive strategy.

Muslims have tremendous buying power, yet they don't use it wisely to achieve what is beneficial for the Ummah.  There are thousands of our respected brothers from Saudi and the Gulf who bring their families to France and Europe in the summers and spend a large amount of money in expensive hotels and so on.  If their it becomes known that their wives will be banned from wearing hijab, they will not come.  This is what we desire.


It also benefits us as Muslims, since whatever France produces, we can buy from those who support us and respect us.  It is a shame that we buy items from those who look down on us as if we are inferior.  What kind of humiliation is that?  Our women should be free to wear what they believe is right and commanded by God.


Where is our faith and pride in our religion?



And Allah knows best.

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« Reply #7 on: Jun 27, 2009 07:40 AM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/26/sarkozy-france-paris-islamic-veils

Veiled threats: row over Islamic dress opens bitter divisions in France

• Moves to ban Muslim face coverings gather force
• Human rights groups warn of growing discrimination

In the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, with its busy market, fast-food joints and bargain clothes shops, Angelica Winterstein only goes out once a week – and only if she really has to.

"I feel like I'm being judged walking down the street. People tut or spit. In a smart area west of Paris, one man stopped his car and shouted: 'Why don't you go back to where you came from?' But I'm French, I couldn't be more French," said the 23-year-old, who was born and raised in bourgeois Versailles.

Once a fervent Catholic, Winterstein converted to Islam at 18. Six months ago she began wearing a loose, floor-length black jilbab, showing only her expertly made-up face from eyebrows to chin. She now wants to add the final piece, and wear full niqab, covering her face and leaving just her eyes visible.

"But this week, after Sarkozy announced that full veils weren't welcome in France, things have got really difficult," she said. "As it is, people sometimes shout 'Ninja' at me. It's impossible to find a job – I'm a qualified childminder and get plenty of interviews because of my CV, but when people see me in person, they don't call back. It's difficult in this country, there's a certain mood in the air. I don't feel comfortable walking around."

This week, France plunged into another bitterly divisive national debate on Muslim women's clothing, reopening questions on how the country with western Europe's biggest Muslim community integrates Islam into its secular republic. A parliamentary inquiry is to examine how many women in France wear full Islamic veils or niqab before a decision is made over possibly banning such garments in the street. More than 50 MPs from across the political spectrum have called for restrictions on full veils, called "degrading", "submissive" and "coffins" by politicians. Yet the actual numbers of niqab wearers in France appears to be so small that TV news crews have struggled to find individuals to film. Muslim groups estimate that there are perhaps only a few hundred women fully covering themselves out of a Muslim population of over 5 million – often young French women, many of them converts.

That such a marginal issue can suddenly take centre stage in a country otherwise struggling with major issues of mass unemployment and protest over public sector reform shows how powerful the symbol of the headscarf and veil remains in France.

Human rights groups warned this week that the row over niqabs risks exacerbating the growing problem of discrimination against women wearing standard Muslim headscarves. Five years on from the heated national debate over France's 2004 law banning headscarves and all conspicuous religious symbols from state schools, there has been an increase in general discrimination against adult women who cover their heads.

"Women in standard headscarves have been refused access to voting booths, driving lessons, barred from their own wedding ceremonies at town halls, ejected from university classes and in one case, a woman in a bank was not allowed to withdraw cash from her own account at the counter. This is clear discrimination by people who wrongly use the school law to claim that France is a secular state that doesn't allow headscarves in public places. It's utterly illegal and the courts rule in our favour," said Renee Le Mignot, co-president of the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples. "Our fear is that the current niqab debate is going to make this general discrimination worse."

Samy Debah, a history teacher who heads France's Collective against Islamophobia, said 80% of discrimination cases reported to his group involved women wearing standard headscarves.

He had rarely seen any instances of women wearing niqabs, even in the ethnically mixed north Paris suburb where he lives. "From our figures, the biggest discriminator against Muslim women is the state and state officials," he said. "What people have to understand is that the concept of French secularism is not anti-religion per se, it is supposed to be about respecting all religions."

The current initiative against full Islamic veils began in Venissieux, a leftwing area on the industrial outskirts of Lyon. Its communist mayor, André Gerin, led proposals for a clampdown, saying he saw increasing numbers of full veils in his constituency.

"I call them walking prisons, phantoms that go past us, it's that visual aspect that's an issue," Gerin said. "There's a malaise in the general population faced with the proliferation of these garments. I sense that on the part of Muslims, too."

Gerin said women in niqab posed "concrete problems" in daily life. "We had an issue in a school where a headteacher at the end of the school day didn't want to hand back two children to a phantom," he said. Gerin has refused to conduct the town-hall wedding of a woman wearing niqab. Another woman wearing a full veil was refused social housing by a landlord in the area. The mayor said that when women haven't removed their face covering, it has resulted in conflict with public officials who often felt insulted or under attack. But he denied stigmatising the wider Muslim population.

"The current situation [where women wear niqabs] is stigmatising Muslims," he said. His aim was to "establish a debate with the Muslim community, integrate Islam properly into French life" and expose fundamentalist practices.

Two previous calls for a law restricting full veils have been left to gather dust. This time, the debate is gathering force. There are divisions in the government itself – the feminist Muslim junior minister, Fadela Amara, supports a niqab ban while the immigration minister, Eric Besson, warns it would create unnecessary tension.

Horia Demiati, 30, a French financier who wears a standard headscarf with her business suits, said: "I really fear an increase in hatred." She recently won a discrimination case after she and her family, including a six-month baby, were refused access to a rural holiday apartment they had booked in the Vosges. The woman who refused them argued that she was a secular feminist and didn't want to see the headscarf, "an instrument of women's submission and oppression", in her establishment.

Demiati said: "This niqab debate is such a marginal issue, yet it risks detracting from the real issues in France."

'If he woke up and had enough food for the day and shelter (a roof over his head) and he does not fear for his safety, then it is as if he has been given the dunya.'
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 18, 2009 07:15 AM »

Irony or idiocy, or both. Muslims paying 5-10k for abayas designed by French designers who hate and ban Muslim dress??? What is wrong with Muslims. We can't even use our buying power for anything. We just turn into idiots, let people abuse and hate us and then go and pay exorbitant amounts of money to fulfill THEIR oppressive ideas of what women should wear. Sheesh kabobs!!  Angry -- J.


==========================
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/fashionnews/5655392/Abaya-gets-a-makeover-from-John-Galliano-and-Blumarine.html


Abaya gets a makeover from John Galliano and Blumarine

Top European fashion labels, including John Galliano and Blumarine, have sent models in couture abayas down the runway in an effort to lure wealthy Muslim women.


A horsewoman in a flowing, made-to-measure Islamic gown atop a snorting steed opened the fashion show on Thursday at the George V Hotel in Paris.

Abayas are the body-covering black robes some Muslim women don over their clothing in public, usually accompanied by a head scarf or niqab, the face veil that covers all but the eyes.
Designers who tried their hand at making over the abaya, which is required in Saudi Arabia, included Christian Dior's artistic director John Galliano, French luxury labels Nina Ricci and Jean Claude Jitrois and Italian houses Blumarine and Alberta Feretti.

The show began with a bang, as the carrot-topped cavaliere - decked out in a Galliano-designed abaya exploding with firework of coloured sequins and dangling fringe - rode her mount into the hotel's subterranean salon.

Twenty models followed on foot, wearing abayas heavy with rhinestones or airy in gauzy fabrics.
"I realised that most of the Saudi clients are wearing designer brands, but they're covered by a black abaya," said Dania Tarhini, the show's organiser and a general manager of Saks Fifth Avenue in Saudi Arabia. "It is an obligation to wear the abaya there, but let them feel good about it."

The timing of the Paris show was propitious: four days earlier, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, struck a nerve in the Muslim world by declaring that full-body veils such as the burka are "not welcome" in France, saying they make women prisoners. A top Muslim group in Britain called Mr Sarkozy "patronising and offensive." Lebanon's most influential Shia cleric called on Mr Sarkozy to reconsider his comments.

Ms Tarhini, a Lebanese who has lived in Saudi Arabia for the past seven years, acknowledged "it wasn't easy" to convince designers to take part in the project.

At first, "they couldn't imagine how to make a designer abaya," she told The Associated Press in an interview. "I explained to them the concept is to (make women) look good and also to promote their brands .... Then they accepted."
She said the initial batch of made-to-measure abayas - worth between €4,000-€8,000 ($5,500-$11,150) - would be given as presents to Saks' most faithful Saudi clients.

Ready-to-wear versions of the robes by the 21 designers featured in the Paris show are expected to go on sale in Saks stores the Saudi Arabian cities of Jeddah and Riyadh in September. The gowns, which are to retail for €1,800 ($2,500), could later be sold in the store's branches in neighbouring Bahrain and Dubai, she said.

Most of the gowns on display adhered to standards considered appropriate for wear in Saudi Arabia: all were black, most were floor-length and many had a built-in head covering or matching veil.

The few translucent abayas, like a bell-sleeved gown embroidered with white and yellow flowers by Carolina Herrera, the Venezuelan designer favoured by Renée Zellwegger, were meant to be worn over evening gowns, Ms Tarhini said.

"Everybody's waiting for a change in a good way," she said. Some women in Saudi Arabia "don't want to feel obliged (to wear the abaya). They want to wear it to look fashionable, as well."
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 31, 2010 07:40 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/31/belgium-public-ban-burqa-niqab

Wednesday 31 March 2010

Home affairs committee of Brussels federal parliament votes unanimously to ban partial or total covering of faces in public places.

Belgium today moved to the forefront of a widening campaign to restrict the wearing of the Muslim veil by women when a key vote left it on track to become the first European country to ban the burqa and niqab in public.

The home affairs committee of the Brussels federal parliament voted unanimously to ban the partial or total covering of faces in public places.

"I am proud that Belgium would be the first country in Europe which dares to legislate on this sensitive matter," the centre-right MP Denis Ducarme said.

Daniel Bacquelaine, the liberal MP who proposed the bill, said: "We cannot allow someone to claim the right to look at others without being seen.

"It is necessary that the law forbids the wearing of clothes that totally mask and enclose an individual. Wearing the burqa in public is not compatible with an open, liberal, tolerant society."

The Belgian move came as neighbouring France and the Netherlands continued to grapple with the idea of imposing similar restrictions.

The Canadian province of Quebec last week introduced parliamentary measures to proscribe facial covering in public service employment – a move that enjoyed overwhelming public support in Canada.

Support for the ban in Belgium transcended party lines, ranging from the Greens to the far right, and also resulted in a rare show of unity between the linguistically divided halves of the country.

The full support of the home affairs committee means parliament is likely to vote for the curbs in mid-April, with a ban in force by the summer.

Under the proposals, a fine of up to €25 (£22) or punishment of up to seven days in prison would be imposed for wearing the full-body burqa or face-masking niqab.

The bill, to be debated next month, states that anyone in a public place "with face covered or disguised in whole or in part to the extent that she cannot be identified" is liable to incur the penalties.

A Green MP noted that the proposed curbs could play havoc with Santa Claus lookalikes in December shopping malls.
(Seriously, that's all they're worried about??)

While today's vote paved the way for the first nationwide ban on the veil in Europe, local authorities in Belgium already have the power to ban the burqa and niqab in public places.

Of the 500,000 Muslims living in Belgium – with big populations in Brussels and Antwerp – very few women wear the full veil, and there has been little public debate about the need to ban it.

While Bacquelaine admitted there was little problem with full facial covering among Muslims in Belgium, he argued for a preemptive move, saying: "We have to act as of today to avoid [its] development."

Rather than being about the burqa and the niqab, the bigger debate in Belgium – as elsewhere in Europe – is about the less severe headscarf, with Muslim parents pressing for schools to allow their daughters to cover their heads and often opting to send them to private schools tolerant of the practice.

The Belgian move is similar to other campaigns in Europe.

Following a heavy regional elections trouncing last week, President Nicolas Sarkozy, of France, called for a burqa ban.

"The all-body veil is contrary to the dignity of women," he said. "The answer is to ban it. The government will introduce a bill to ban it that conforms to the principles of our laws." The headscarf is banned in schools in France.

But yesterday, France's advisory state council cast doubt on Sarkozy's plans when it said a burqa ban could be unconstitutional.

In the Netherlands, rightwinger Geert Wilders – riding high in the opinion polls prior to elections in June – is also campaigning for Muslim veil bans and has issued warnings about the "Islamification" of Dutch society.

Isabelle Praile, the vice-president of the Muslim Executive of Belgium, warned that a Belgian ban could be the thin end of the wedge.

"Today it's the full-face veil. Tomorrow the veil, the day after it will be Sikh turbans, and then perhaps it will be miniskirts," ," she told the AFP news agency.  (I think that is the fear, that these burqa/niqab bans are really paving the way for, a full public ban on hijabs all over Europe.)

It remains to be seen whether any bans will be challenged at the European court of human rights.

'If he woke up and had enough food for the day and shelter (a roof over his head) and he does not fear for his safety, then it is as if he has been given the dunya.'
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 01, 2010 09:12 AM »

can i ask an idiotic question.  being an idiot, i hope you will just sigh...and say..."lucid was born an idiot, he just can't help himself...don't curse him, just take pity on him...."

my question is: why shouldn't the burkha and faceveil be banned except in exceptional cases?

where i live it really is a tool to keep women indoors and oppress them.  for cultured, educated sisters, i know it can be liberating.  but for normal women, i very much doubt it.  in the muslim world, women are at such at disadvantage, and misogynism is wired into the cultural DNA of so many muslim cultures, that the face veil and burqa instead of protecting women from harassment, have themselves become a tool for the harassment of women.

i know the prophet's wives turned out fully covered after the verses of hijab, but even then that type of all-encompassing veiling was culture specific.  Did the prophet command them to cover everything?  It seems doubtful, and mainstream opinions are pretty unanimous that face veiling is not necessary. so if that is the case, what is the point of face veiling except in cases where women truly want to be anonymous?

one thing, i think most of you who live in the States don't realize is how much the subjugation of women is responsible for nationwide poverty.  it is the core reason for extreme poverty and why so many muslim countries stay poor.  i can elaborate on that later if you want..


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« Reply #11 on: Apr 01, 2010 11:37 AM »

d best part of controversies such as s face-veil ban in belgium is dat it provides PR 4 Islam @ zero$.D result: more islam conversions

Talk about Allah's Master Plan  Wink

ps: How many of the believers opposing the face-veil ban use it in their own lives?A question for all of us to think about.

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« Reply #12 on: Apr 01, 2010 01:02 PM »

salam


Lucid, how much of western worldwide ban on the face veil will be liberating for women in developing countries? I'll bet none.

The women who wear it and are being forced to remove it, are young, educated, women who have made this their own choice.

I don't wear the face veil, but I support it, mainly because I feel as a woman living in the west, I am treated in all other aspects as the subject of this country, so why on earth do I not get the same freedoms as my next door non muslim neighbour?

Also as a Muslim with a few niqabi friends, my sisters who wear niqab consider it a law of Allah, and till I meet my creator and get ot ask if this was so, there's no way on earth I'm going to disagree or disrespect this.



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 01, 2010 07:24 PM »

The women who wear it and are being forced to remove it, are young, educated, women who have made this their own choice.

I live in the USA and I've known women and girls who had to do certain things, including wearing the niqab, because their husband or father demanded it. Nobody cared about their "choice". Aren't we told over and over to be obedient?

However in cases like that, if the sister has to deal with both a ban on the niqab outdoors AND with the rigid demands of her husband or father who she is required to obey, what is the result?

The wife or daughter ends up having to leave work or school and spend most of her time in the home.  If it's a daughter, her education is cut short and she may have no options other than to be shipped off to Back Homelandia to marry at age 15.

Who benefits from niqab bans? Not the women or girls who where it (by choice or not) and are forced to curtail their lives.  The only benefits are to the "do gooders" and Islamophobes who will feel happy to see no veils in public.  (The fact that some women will stop going out at all probably isn't an issue to the "do gooders".  Out of sight, out of mind.)  Sad

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« Reply #14 on: Apr 02, 2010 11:55 PM »

slms..
we are living in a society that has distorted the meaning of peace to represent the unlicensed following of one's passions- and as much as we try to separate our indentities to keep our imaan intact, the media has done a rather sterling job in getting under our skin and whispering sly words of oppression and abuse.
The hijab isn't a symbol of oppression. It is a symbol of terror.
It is the terror of man who does not quite know how to manipulate the creature before him, because there is no apparent weak link to exploit. The hijaab is too stark in it's purity to be comfortable for one whose own claim is rather murky.
So it must be abolished. To even out the battlefield. And the best way is to change its meaning. Don't let it be a religious barrier.
Make it a human rights offence. Make it a shrill cry to victimhood- so that we can even feel Good about throwing it off.
Sisters. For those who are treated brutally under the banner of Islam- that is the fault of culture- and LACK of islam.
(I have yet to hear of the great christian massacres. you know. that whole alleged 6 million jewish ethnic cleansing.
oh wait. that was just a WORLD war. not a religious war. *hah* but men abusing women-well! thats a muslim thing.)
Sarkozy is just a man. But his word is suddenly greater than God's. And what is his claim to fame?
He wants to liberate us. To free us from the submission of God so that we can submit, instead, to man.
With his feet of clay and his missiles.
It's ok to be muslim. just dont look like one. or think like one. or do the other stuff.
you know...be user friendly muslims.
*sigh*
im sorry for ranting. but...i just wish... we would open our eyes. we follow a religion that was born in blood  and torture and humiliation of its early followers- and we dont stand and fight like proper heirs to the ummah, but rather give away our gifts with a shrug of our shoulders for the sake of ease.

If we hide from the world , what we very much would love to show (our beauty), then Allah will give us something the world can never take away.

But Sarkozy and his lot are doing a good job of stealing it- with our help.
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 14, 2010 04:57 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/14/tycoon-fund-to-fight-french-niqab-ban

Tycoon plans €1m fund to fight French niqab ban
Businessman Rachid Nekkaz hopes to render new law useless by paying fines for women caught wearing veil in street
Wednesday 14 July 2010

A French property tycoon enraged at his government's plans to ban women from wearing the full veil in public has promised a fund of €1m (£830,000) to help any Muslim who is fined for wearing the niqab in the street.

Rachid Nekkaz, a businessman of Algerian origin who launched a short-lived campaign in the 2007 presidential elections, has already put €200,000 into a bank account aimed at bailing out women who find themselves on the wrong side of the new law.

He insists that the ban, which was approved by the lower house of parliament on Tuesday and is set to be ratified by the senate in September, is "anti-constitutional" and a move that could put France on a slippery slope towards greater intolerance.

While he has no problem – like most of the French population – with an idea initially mooted by MPs of banning the full veil in state areas such as town halls and post offices, he is vehemently against a law that applies to women simply walking down the street.

"I am very, very sensitive to when people start playing around with institutions and the constitution. I was not shocked by the idea of a ban in public services; I am a [French] republican. But when I saw the president – the guarantor of the constitution – announcing a ban in the street I said to myself, 'this is serious'".

Nekkaz, who says his fund received €36,000 in donations in the 24 hours following its announcement and hopes it will reach €1m by September, is selling properties in the Parisian suburbs to keep the money coming in.

Under the planned law, any woman found wearing a face-covering veil anywhere in public faces a possible fine of €150 as well, potentially, as a course in "citizenship". However, if she has been fined for wearing the garment in the street, she will be able to pay the charge from Nekkaz's fund. The law, he hopes, will be made "inapplicable".

"I think this would never happen in the United States or the United Kingdom … France is a country which is not scared to compromise its principles," he said.

Nekkaz, a Muslim, is not the only one to have raised concerns about the viability of the law, due to come into full effect by spring next year. France's constitutional watchdog has twice warned that it could be found to infringe personal freedoms.

'If he woke up and had enough food for the day and shelter (a roof over his head) and he does not fear for his safety, then it is as if he has been given the dunya.'
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 20, 2011 06:15 PM »

more ridiculousness....

=============

French burka ban descends into farce

France's burka ban descended into farce when the first women to be summoned before a European court for illegally wearing the garments were refused entry, because they would not remove their face coverings.



Hind and Najet, who keep their features hidden at all times and refuse to identify themselves beyond their first names, were due to appear before a judge outside Paris.

Both are accused of violating France's so-called "burka ban", which came into force earlier this year and prevents anyone covering up their faces in public.

But when Hind, a 31-year-old mother, tried to enter the court building in Meaux on Thursday, police held her back, telling her to take her head-covering off.

Najet, meanwhile, simply stayed at home, with the 34-year-old saying she knew she would be stopped from entering.

"For the hearing to go ahead, you must remove the veil. Justice must be administered in a calm atmosphere," police commissioner Philippe Tireloque told Hind.

Hind, who had brought her own handcuffs to wear as part of an organised protest at the court, replied: "I'll keep my veil on at all times. It's non-negotiable.

"The law forbids me from expressing myself, and indeed from defending myself. It forces me to dress a certain way, when all I want to do is live according to my religion."

Police are under strict orders not to remove face coverings themselves, meaning Hind was simply told to leave.

Their court appearance was accordingly abandoned, as state prosecutors began trying to work out how they can deal with the challenge to the new law. They are expected to come to a decision in September.

The accused are both from the Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois, and were arrested in Meaux in May after travelling to an anti-burka ban protest.

They face fines of £140 and an order to attend compulsory citizenship classes, at which they will be â taught' how to behave as upstanding citizens in a secular republic.

Both deny the charge of covering their faces in a public place, saying the burka ban is "unconstitutional'. The case is likely to go all the way to the European Court of Human Rights, rather than seeing the defendants punished for what they chose to wear.

France is the first country in European to implement a full ban on covering up faces in public.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8581980/French-burka-ban-descends-into-farce.html
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« Reply #17 on: Jun 21, 2011 07:28 AM »

At imes, women are bolder than men  Wink

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