// Homosexuality
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Mimi
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« on: Jun 29, 2009 06:25 AM »


I'm drawn to Islam. I've learnt about Islam through a friend.  I have found that the way I try to live my life seems to be in line with Islam.  The difficulty I have is with homosexuality. My understanding is the Quran says that homosexuality is evil and wrong.  The gay people I know are attracted to other people of their own gender and while I don't understand it, if they are with other gay people, what harm is there?

My own observation is that people seem to be born gay. It was no surprise that the boy in the neighborhood who liked show tunes and spoke a certain way, grew up to be gay.   Discussing whether this was an inborn quality, I asked my Muslim friend how he would react if he were to have children and found out a child of his were gay. He said he would disown them completely and would prefer that they were murders than gay. I asked him how he would react if his brother was gay. He said he would no longer have a brother.

If I were to have children, I would not want them to be gay as I think it's a hard life and one that I don't understand. But I would never disown my own child or sibling because they were gay. I'm very close to my family and I cannot understand this. It seems very unkind and the venom with which he spoke almost scared me. He is normally a kind person.

My understanding of the Quran is that it's considered to be the Word of God. Completely true. If this part about homosexuality is true, I have a hard time with it.  What are your thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 29, 2009 04:56 PM »

salam


Firstly I'm not scholar, in fact I don't know much!

In Islam breaking of family ties is not allowed, you cannot disown someone, its wrong and not Islamic (someone correct me please if I'm wrong), maintaining blood ties is imperative.

Regarding homosexuality, as far as I can tell, it is the act that is disliked, now whether a person acts on his feelings and urges when he/she knows the limits set upon him/her is between him/her and his/her creator.


I'm no help am I.



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 29, 2009 10:13 PM »

I think it's important to look at the "evil" of homosexuality in a certain context it makes Islam's position easier to understand. 
Sexual relations outside the legal and social framework of marriage are prohibited in Islam just as they are in other religions.   Since there is no legal framework in any religion for a homosexual relationship, the act itself has no place in Islam or in other religions. 
There's no question that even around the Prophet upon whom be peace, there were men who were effiminate (for example the Prophet's poet I believe, who could not participate in battle).  They were neither shunned nor outcast by the society.  There's no evidence, however, that they were attracted to men or any of the like, and if anyone was, there's no account of anyone acting on it.
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 30, 2009 05:39 AM »

the quran actually doesn't explicitly condemn gay people.  there is no fire and brimstone promised  just for being gay....etc...

what there is a condemnation of the people of soddom/gomorrah (i..e in the muslim context -- the the people of Lut).  however, the condemnation there is  slightly nuanced.  the people there are condemned for licentiousness, for perversion, for being outright twats.  For example, the Prophet Lut comes to them and begsthem to stop being perverts and offers them his daughters (to wed).  But instead they prefer his male guests....

now, this has been extrapolated by many to be an outright condemnation of gayness, etc... however, as is clear from the context, it is quite a bit more complex than that.

the condemnation of gayness really comes the hadith -- the sayings of the prophet.  however, as far as i know there aren't actually any prophetic condemnations of  gay people.  there is however a very well know condemnation by Umar, the second caliph who tells gays that they deserve death.  however, even this has to to accepted with the knowledge that Umar was particularly and sometimes overly strict.  that was one of the reasons why he was so loved because he never cut corners, never violated the law.  however, sometimes his appreciation of the law, in the opinion of other companions of the Prophet was flawed.  (e.g. hafsah telling him to leave her alone, and his scaring the daylights out of his wife).

one interesting thing about all of this is that homo-ness was very common in Arabia at that time.  it wasn't unknown and was quite prevalent.  if it really was absolute evil incarnate, there probably would have been many, many verses in the quran condemning it explicitly and many prophetic sayings against it.

nevertheless, it is unanimously accepted that guys doing stuff with other guys, etc....is outside of islam.  intimacy is only sanctioned within the bounds of marriage, and marriage between gay people does not exist.  however, at the same time there is not this nazistic condemnation of people who are biologically gay because their genes are skewed or whatever.  gayness is something that muslims just accept, but not something which is legal justification for intimate things.

now from a cultural point of view, gayness is like the freakiest thing us asians folks can imagine.  and even me, well even i cannot get my head around how a guy can like another guy.  it seems like the grossest thing possible; i mean hideously gross  however, that is a cultural thing and not an islamic thing.  so culturally, unfortunately we are quite homophobic.  however, islamically, there is no reason to get so worked up about it as long as no intimacy is involved.

Allah knows best, and i hope i haven't made a mistake....
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 30, 2009 06:03 AM »

The thing about humans is that we're very subjective. We could say well if it doesn't "hurt" anyone anything should be OK. Like... incest. Between consenting adults why should it be wrong? Yet it is something that almost everyone would condemn, just like people would have condemned homosexuality 40 years ago. It's only in recent times that the success of making it an acceptable thing has occurred.

Whether one believes that it's a "disease" or a "birth defect" or "learned behavior", we do know that acting upon it is haram, wrong in our religion. We know that there is complex legislation on the subject in Islamic law, but the problem is we shouldn't take this out of context because we do not live in an Islamic state and all the other conditions needed for certain things. As Muslims, we should hate the act of any sin, not the person. We're not the Islamic state so we shouldn't be the one's to exact "vigilante justice".

If a family member is committing a sin we should try to help them but making sure they know that we feel what they are doing is wrong. I mean I can understand why people react so strongly to it. If you had a child that was like 'commiting murder or incest' and they unrepentant and didn't care it's a hard decision to make on how to deal with it... anyway just some thoughts

take care...
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 30, 2009 06:31 AM »

big sister,

incest is like waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different from being gay.

there cannot be annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy biological justification for fancying your sibling, whereas there can possibly be biological justification for liking members of the same gender.

being biologically predisposed to like the lsame gender but not being able to act on your urges might seem cruel.  but, everybody has urges they cannot act on.  some are bigger than others.  for example, personally, i would like beat the crap out of chelsea fans....but unfortunately i can't.  ok, stupid joke...but the point is the same.

the slogan i guess is: being homo is not a sin, but being an active frolicking homo jumping on other guys is...

sorry for being so homophobic..Smiley my sisters who went/go to women's colleges are always apalled by me.  but i don't mean any malice, its just something difficult for people from my cultural background to understand....

-the idiot
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 30, 2009 08:38 AM »

Quote
incest is like waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different from being gay.

how is it different? i could argue there is no biological justification for two men or two women to have relations with each other either. it goes against every principle of evolutionary biology.

so why do we as a society accept one and not the other. if you ask me, it's good publicity. i can't say if one is biologically predisposed or has a genetic disorder or is messed up psychologically. God only knows. I do believe it's wrong like many other people of faith, but I don't think violence or hating other people helps anyone.

Why do we consider adultery wrong but when it's in marriage it's OK. Both are physically the same thing. These are subjective things. That's why we as human beings need a guide, an objective guide from our Creator that really defines what is best. It is this faith and trust in the Creator that will help guide your way to Islam, God Willing.
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 30, 2009 09:38 AM »

salam


Apparently (or so I have read!), incest between siblings who were split up at birth is more common than one would think.

For example if a brother and sister have been adopted to different families as very young children, if they meet as adults, there is a very good likelihood that the siblings will be sexually attracted to eachother (no idea why).... from the repertoire of my well of completely and utterly useless trivia!!!!

I must see if I can find the study.


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 30, 2009 06:01 PM »

Hi Mimi,

Having questions about these things is great.  We're encouraged in Islam to ask questions - but to always know that ultimately only Allah has answers to everything.

Let's be clear - in Islam, homosexuality is a sin.  We Muslims believe that it did not exist before the people of Lot invented this practice.  And yes, they were deceptive, lecherous, HORRIBLE people - but the reason they were punished from God was because they were homosexual.

The best way to look at homosexuality is as a test from God.  I too believe that people are born with certain predispositions.  Some gay people do actually know that they are attracted to the same gender at a very young age.  Others "discover" it when they're much older, maybe because they have been approached by a "gay" person. 

Now, for the first of these, I really think that they have been tested by God with an extremely difficult challenge.  Islamically, even if someone feels a certain sin coming on, they cannot act upon it.  People are biologically born with aggression disorders - doesn't mean that they can get away with murder, literally (or even physically harming someone in the slightest).  Both people must suppress their natural tendencies.

For the latter group - it is the reason why homosexuality is forbidden to be practiced.  Just like if ALL of your friends do drugs, you will be tempted to try them too - in the same way, if all of your friends are gay, you may be influenced into practicing it too.

This is where the whole "it erodes families and society" argument comes in. 

Fortunately for everyone out there who has ever gone through an immeasurable challenge - this world is not the end all and be all of everything ...

It's really tough. I don't know Sad



 

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« Reply #9 on: Jul 01, 2009 11:02 AM »

peace be upon you

My own observation is that people seem to be born gay

....

If I were to have children, I would not want them to be gay as I think it's a hard life and one that I don't understand. But I would never disown my own child or sibling because they were gay. I'm very close to my family and I cannot understand this. It seems very unkind and the venom with which he spoke almost scared me. He is normally a kind person.

Although infants are born innocent, quite early on we do acquire predispositions towards good and bad. It does not entitle us to escape punishments for doing wrong because of our predispositions. Because, with time, we learn what is right, and what is wrong. If we persist in wrong, we are punished.

Women do have difficulty is disowning their children and siblings. If a child went out of Islam, would we disown him/her? I would, for leaving Islam would mean burning in Hell, and such a person would be an example for others to leave Islam, too.  If a child insisted on having sexual relationships with a non-Muslim, would I disown him/her? Yes, I would. But I wouldn't close the door. If my child repented, he/she would be welcome.

So, if a child were gay, he/she would have to know that this means a cut-off until repentance.

Let us assume a Muslim were in the habit of drinking, gambling, fornication, same sex relationships ... but he/she still recognised these as sins, and wanted to leave these, but was unable to do so. Yes, then there is no need to disown him/her, but if he/she rationalised the actions as not being sin, that is revising God's Law, and that is apostacy. The least punishment is banishment/ cutting-off.

Sister Fozia's statement that there is no cutting off of blood relationships is true. However, if someone leaves Islam, then yes, there is a punishment for apostacy. The apostate cannot inherit from a Muslim, and a Muslim does not inherit from an apostate.

Islam does prescribe living a life according to its rules, but the foremost is the recognition that Allah is the Creator, Sustainer, and also the Maker of rules for our lives. One's love for Allah should be unconditional, and above all loves. But that isn't achieved on the day of our accepting Islam. That is a goal to strive to. Very few people today will pass this test. We strive all our lives to achieve it. But the key is strive. We have to recognise that the Quran is Allah's Word; when He condemned the people of Lut, it was for their perversion. Anyone who follows in their footsteps is perverted, too. But the path of repentance is open.

When all is said, who deserves more love from us? Is it Allah (swt) who has given us this life, and these blood relationships, or these relationships themselves, which will evaporate on the Day of Judgment, when everyone will be thinking of only him/herself?

Punishments are prescribed not to gloat in masochism, but to instill that extra bit that may prevent some, if not all, to keep away from harming themselves, and society.

In my childhood, I uttered a word to my brother that was abusive. It does not matter that he had been taunting me. The word was unacceptable. When my mother heard of it she got hold of me and picked up an ember saying she would burn my tongue for uttering that word. For she said she prefrred to burn me herself in this world than see me burn in Hell. Was she cruel? Was mother's love absent? No? She loved me at least as much as she did any other child of hers. This was a threat, a very close threat, but issued so that I would think of burning in Hell before I again said such a word. If one only has thoughts of doing some wrong, but actually abstains from it, it is not written as a sin.

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« Reply #10 on: Jul 02, 2009 03:08 AM »

Innalijahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un. It baffles me why u people debate on illicity of Sodomy! Even Ulemas debates only on issues that have no clear judgement in the Quran or Hadeeths. Quran, sunnah and unanimity of Ulema all condemned it then why are u having second thought. Innal Haram bayyin. And as our sister said, some people may be avoided for the sake of letting them know the gravity of their Sins, that is allowed in Islam, only that one is not expected to go beyond limit. Furthermore, we should know that Allah don't prohibit to us what we can't decease from. You may have the urge but you may fight it. May Allah prevent us from the present fitnah. Allah A'lam.

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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« Reply #11 on: Jul 02, 2009 07:13 AM »

Thanks for all your responses. I have read them all and they are all food for thought.
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 02, 2009 08:02 AM »

Quote
It baffles me why u people debate on illicity of Sodomy!

Bro, no one is debating it's illicity. We are discussing ways of dealing with it.

ws
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 02, 2009 12:36 PM »

Thought this might be interesting to put here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/02/homosexuality-decriminalised-delhi-india

Sex between people of same gender has been illegal in India since British colonial era.

An Indian court today decriminalised homosexuality – but only in the country's capital, Delhi.

The Delhi high court ruled that treating consensual gay sex as a crime was a violation of fundamental rights protected by India's constitution.

The ruling is the first of its kind in the deeply conservative country.

"We've finally entered the 21st century," said Anjali Gopalan, the executive director of the Naz Foundation (India) Trust, a sexual health organisation that filed a petition calling for decriminalisation eight years ago.

The verdict can be challenged in India's supreme court.

Sex between people of the same gender has been illegal in India since a British colonial era law classified it as "against the order of nature".

According to the law, gay sex is punishable by 10 years in prison. While actual criminal prosecutions are few, the legislation has frequently been used to harass people.

It can only be amended by the Indian parliament, but the court's verdict should protect Delhi's gay community from criminal charges and police harassment.

While the ruling is not binding on courts in India's other states, Tripti Tandon, a lawyer for the Naz Foundation, said she hoped it would have a "persuasive" effect.

Rights activists say the law against sex between people of the same gender sanctions discrimination and marginalises the gay community.

Health experts say it also discourages safe sex and has been a hurdle in fighting HIV and Aids. Around 2.5 million Indians have HIV.

Homosexuality is slowly gaining acceptance in some parts of India, especially in the big cities. Many bars have gay nights, and some high-profile Bollywood films have had gay themes.

Nevertheless, being gay remains deeply taboo, and many homosexuals hide their sexual orientation from their friends and families.

Supporters of the law – including the leaders of conservative Hindu political and religious groups – argue that gay sex should remain illegal and that open homosexuality is out of step with India's traditions.

'If he woke up and had enough food for the day and shelter (a roof over his head) and he does not fear for his safety, then it is as if he has been given the dunya.'
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 02, 2009 04:13 PM »

Maybe everyone is saying the same thing:

1. Gayness can be genetic/something you're born with. If so, you cannot change who you are genetically.
2. Acting on Gayness (Sex with someone of the same gender)- is ISlamically wrong.
3. Having Feelings of gayness and holding them captive in your mind and heart- is okay. Poor person is tortured and tested their whole lives. But that's okay islamically.

How about we spin on it.

Scenario: Two gays get married (can happen some places). They get married but never have sexual relations. (anything is possible). Is that okay?


My beliefs: Some people are Born Gay. It is what it is. I follow the Quran and SUnnah and agree that sex between same sexes is Haram/illegal islamically etc. However, do I  go around telling people what to do? I dont know. Sure, if I had a brother and he was homo, I'd tell him not to have sex with a man ever even if he were to 'marry' this guy. I would not disown him on those grounds if he did though. Just my thought. Just as I would not disown my child if he were gay. Granted, I'd hate if he were doing anything un-islamic. Being Gay in itself doesnt mean a person is DOING something Un-Islamic.

-peace
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 03, 2009 07:34 AM »

Peace be on the followers of guidance,



Mimi, part of the conditions of accepting true Faith is that one submits wholeheartedly to the Quran.  God's knowledge is perfect, while we can only arrive at relative knowledge.


As for the crime of committing homosexuality, it is a great evil, and it is established without doubt in Islam, and anyone who denies this cannot be a Muslim.


As for homesexuality being genetic, this is a fabrication.  Homosexuality is a grave violation of the Fitrah, the natural dispostion on which all human beings are created.

God created Adam and Eve, He didn't create Adam and Adam.  Having certain effeminate traits does not necessitate that a person commit homosexuality.  Likewise, a woman having certain masculine traits does not necissitate she carry out homosexual acts.  Further proof of this is the many success stories of those who had homosexual desires who subsequently repented and went on to live happy lives and marry and have children.


Islam teaches that a human being should be in control of his desires, not a person enslaved by their whims, that lets his desires control him.


As for staying away from a relative who is committing major sins, we have to look at the circumstances:


If someone is openly committing homosexuality, or other major sins, and there is no hope of repentance, and after trying to call them with wisdom and knowledge, then we must not associate with them lest we become affected by their evil.




And Allah knows best.


Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 04, 2009 10:24 AM »

peace be upon you

attacking people in this fashion is just not right.

If you disagree with what brother Abdur Rehman has said about homosexuality, please identify that. Better still, quote what you find objectionable in what he has written about homosexuality.
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« Reply #17 on: Jul 14, 2009 05:42 AM »

Agreed, let's stay away from insulting people and discussing what is said. Previous post deleted. Ws.
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