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CountlessBlessings
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« on: Jan 25, 2008 11:54 PM »


I've heard really good things about Ron Paul, republican though he may be.
?
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 26, 2008 03:47 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

I haven't made up my mind simply because I need to know where the candidates really stand on issues that matter to me.  Quite frankly none of them can relate to the common man's life so none are really representative of me.

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah
Abdurahman
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Oh Allah, Guide us to the Straight Path.


« Reply #2 on: Jan 26, 2008 06:58 PM »

 peace be upon you



All praise be to Allah.


The Ulema were asked about the permissibility of voting by those living in non-Muslim societies.  There are some issues that they debated, such whether it is permissible to take a non-Muslim candidate as an absolute authority in one's affairs, which include religious ones.  Such a person may harm the religion if given such authority.

Also, another consideration in Fiqh is taking as a leader one that does not rule by the Creator's Laws, but rather by man made laws, that may be full of errors.  Such a person could make halal what Allah forbade, such as homosexuality, and forbid what Allah allowed, such as hijab, etc.


Ultimately, the Ulema decided that a person should take the path of least harm.  So if by voting for a person who is least harmful to the Muslim body there is benefit, it can, and should be done.


Thus if it appears that a certain candidate, if elected, will do the least harm to the Muslims, he or she should be voted for.  This should be done collectively in order to have the most beneficial effect.


This is based on the principle if Fiqh that says:

"The lesser harm should be given priority over the greater one."



One final note, we should give priority to issues that affect the body of Muslims the greatest.  If a candidate, or his party are known to be against the Muslims, he should be opposed.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
cheese
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 26, 2008 07:47 PM »

Well, that is what was said when Muslims were told to vote for Bush and Blair.
There was no benefit in it and allot of Harm.
Has voting ever brought any benefit to the Muslims?
If so please give an example?

Democracy is the biggest lie ever. Whoever you vote for, the same Jews would rule.
Are the republicans any less Zionist than the Democrats?
Do they get their funding from a different source?

Policies are chosen by civil servants for rich Zionist bankers.
If democracy worked it would be illegal. Just look around the world. Whenever Muslims vote for a Government Jews don’t like in our countries, they forget about their democracy slogan and support the army.
Do you really think they would allow us to dictate policies in their countries when they don’t allow us to do it in our own?

So those of you, who believe in this silly unworkable slogan Democracy, go ahead and vote, and then cry when the person you vote for is elected and you find out he is twice as worse as the last person you were dumb enough to vote for.

Our Prophet pbh, says the believer is never stung from the same hole twice. How many times have you been dumb enough to believe putting a little cross or crucifix next to a persons name on a bit of paper can make a difference?
How many more times do you need to be stung by this to realise, it makes no difference. Which ever Kaffir you vote for, the same Jewish Zionists rule. You are just voting for a front man, a poster boy, a puppet of the learned elders of Zion. The policies of America will be whatever Israel says they will be.
It doesn’t matter which Kaffir you vote for, each and every vote is for Israel and Dejal.

It is time that the Muslims realise change and benefit come from Allah, not the Kaffir and who they elect to make Harram what Allah has made Hallal and make Hallal what Allah has made Harram.
We need to fix ourselves and our countries.
Muslims have to realise that it isn’t which Kaffar rules Dar ul Harb with which type kufr that matters, or makes us difference to us or our countries; it is what we rule by and whether we deserve the mercy of Allah by what we believe in and what we do.
Victory comes from Allah, not from the republicans or democrats.
Remember that.
Don’t expect them to do anything to help us when they get elected, no matter how many Muslims voted for them.
They are our enemies; they hate us and our deen.
The Jews and Christians are friends and protectors of each other.
They are not our friends and protectors.
They may claim to be for our votes, or to get us to kill each other, but it isn’t true.
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 26, 2008 09:43 PM »

Benefits of American Muslim Participation in Public Affairs
Serving the Interests of Faith and Nation

Major Points

Your participation in public affairs protects Muslims and promotes good in society—reducing discrimination, poverty, helping to make quality medical care easily accessible, and ensuring everyone’s civil liberties.

America was built on a set of principles. This contrasts with many nations that are centered on one ethnic group or faith. Making the effort to engage your neighbors in defending these principles ensures that our nation projects to the world the best of its values not the worst of its fears.   

If you are not present to give your opinions your ideas will never be heard.

Bringing your Islamic character to civic life supports such universal ideals as strong families, protection of the weak, and justice.

You live here. You pay taxes here. It is reasonable to work to ensure that these taxes are spent for the public good.
 
CAIR’s research reveals that people who know Muslims personally tend to have better views of Islam. By participating not only do you aid your cause but also you allow others to interact with you and put a human face on a faith many people in America do not understand. 

Muslims have many friends who similarly wish to reform things we see as harming society—gambling, erosion of the family, questionable use of our superpower status. Choosing to disengage from the process abandons these friends and the Islamic principle of promoting the good.

It is our duty to give our leaders sincere advice. We should support public figures that prove themselves trustworthy and a benefit to the nation. We should vote to remove from public office when they do not.

Criticism without action toward improving a situation does not produce respect.

CAIR’s activism model ensures that the time you have available can be put to substantive use. Most action alerts take less than five minutes of your time (but your contribution is magnified because it is joined with similar efforts by thousands of other people of conscience). 
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 26, 2008 09:49 PM »

A Fatwa by Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiya     
Monday, 10 April 2006 
Sheikh Al-­Islam Ibn Taymiya, May Allah grant him forgiveness, was asked about a man, who assumed public offices and undertook responsibility for certain fiefs whose inhabitants were required to pay the State ­ imposed taxes levied as per the practice of all governments. That man chose to lift all the injustice off people's shoulders, seeking to do so with all his effort, knowing that if he resigned his office the injustice would remain as it was, if it did not become worse. The man could alleviate the tax burdens of his subjects, dropping half the taxes but collecting the other half because that half should be collected as repayment for public expenses. Was that man to remain in his office, his intentions and efforts for lifting as much injustice as possible having been known, or should he resign his office and leave the fief for someone else to run, while he knew that his resignation would lift no injustice but could leave the injustice to proliferate? Would he be sinning if he remained in office? If not, would it be right to ask him to remain? Which would be better for him: to stay in office and try to alleviate the injustice as much as he could, or resign his office and let the injustice stay and increase? If the subjects in his fief chose to have him remain in office due to the benefit they gained from his stay through his lifting of injustice, should he stay?

The Sheikh answered:

"Praise be to Allah. Yes, he should stay in office if he is a good man who tries to lift as much injustice as he can, if his being in office is better than having another in his place, and if his control of his fief is better than its control by someone else. He may stay in office, and will not be committing a sin if he does so. His remaining in office is even better than leaving it unless he occupies himself with something better.

"This [stay in office] may even be a duty that such a man has to discharge if there is nobody else who can undertake it, for the establishment of justice and elimination of injustice as much as possible is a collective duty, and should be undertaken by any individual who finds in himself the ability to do so while others cannot undertake it, but he who does so should not be asked in this case to lift an injustice that he cannot cope with.

Such a man should not be asked to lift any taxes that the rulers levy on their subjects in his fief if he cannot lift such taxes. Besides, if the rulers and their representatives demand funds that cannot be paid unless some of these taxes are collected, so that if this man does not pay them what they want they will give his position and fief to someone else who will continue, or increase, the injustice, then the collection of some of these taxes on behalf of the rulers would be better than having all the taxes collected. For if this man tries to be as just as he can, then he is better than others, even if he gives evil persons some of what they demand to make it possible for him to avoid their evil. This man will be rewarded for collecting tax from Muslims if he has to collect it but does not do the injustice himself, and he will not be punished for collecting it if he is collecting it under the aforesaid conditions. He will not be punished in this life or in the Hereafter if he does his best to insure that justice is served as much as possible.

Such a man is like a guardian of orphans, a trustee of waqf (religious trust), a partner in commerce or any such individual who acts on behalf of others by virtue of his guardianship or by proxy: he is like them in their payment of some of the money of their principals of clients to an unjust ruler if this is the only way to serve the interests of their clients. This man will be doing right, not wrong, and what he gives the rulers includes what is given to tax collectors in real-estate tax and sales tax, as anyone who makes a transaction for himself or on behalf of others in these countries has to pay these taxes, and if he does not collect the tax, while he cannot see to the affairs of his subjects without it, the interests of his subjects, and his subjects themselves, will be harmed.

As for those who opine that such a situation should not be allowed to­ exist in order not to accept a little injustice, if they are followed by people, the injustice and corruption will certainly increase, for they are like travellers stopped by bandits: if they do not pacify the bandits with some of their money, the bandits will kill them and take all their money. if anyone says to these travellers, "It is illegal to give the bandits any of your money", he means to keep that little money he is advising them not to pay, but if they follow his advice they will lose that little money and all their money as well. Nobody in his right mind would give such advice, let alone that a religion has ordain it, for Allah the Almighty sent down His Messengers to establish, attain public interests and eliminate and curb evils as much as possible.

If such a man who tries to collect as little tax as possible, and spares the people much more evil by so doing, and can do nothing else, leaves his offices, he will be succeeded by someone else who will collect all the tax and spare the people nothing. Such a man will be rewarded for what he does, and will not be punished (for that) in this world or in the Hereafter.

Such as man is like orphan's guardians and waqfs' trustees who can do their duty only by payment of unjust tax imposed by the government, for if any of them abandons his job he will be replaced by someone who will aggravate the injustice. Therefore, their stay in office is permissible, and they will be committing no sin by paying such taxes. Their remaining in office may even be a duty they have to discharge.

This also applies to the soldier appointed to run a certain fief, who collects less tax from the people but cannot deliver all the tax he collects to the government because he is asked to provide weapons, horses and other things that he can acquire only by taking some of the tax. A well armed soldier serves Muslims well in war. If someone tells him that he has no right to take any of the money and has to leave the fief, and he leaves it to be run by someone else who increases the injustice and does nothing to serve Muslims, this someone will have spoken out of ignorance of the facts of religion. Even the presence of Turkish and Arabian soldiers, who are better than soldiers of others and are closer to justice with people, with the injustice alleviated as much as possible, is better for Muslims than having the fiefs run by others who are less useful and more unjust.

Any of these officials and agents who does his best to be just and charitable will be rewarded for what good they do, and will not be punished for not doing the good that is beyond their means, and they will not be called to account for what they collect or spend if there is noting else they can do, as not collecting the tax and not spending the money as they do will lead to greater evils.

One of the great scholars of Islam, actually many give him the title of Sheikh Al-­Islam Ibn Taymiya Rahim Allah (may Allah have mercy on him), while some people might consider him to be conservative on some issues, in fact he has been so open-minded to the point that he gave a verdict when he was asked.

He said suppose the enemies of Islam invade Muslim lands and rule according to their own law. In other words, they frustrate the application of Shariah, and they're ruling according to their own secular non-Islamic or maybe anti-Islamic type of laws. And then they go to a Muslim to serve as a judge. Should he accept the position or not? I would not tell you how Ibn Taymiya answered that question, but I can tell you what some people today might say. What do you think they would say?

They would say how come? If he accepts, he would be a Kaffir. He would be outside of Islam. Why? Because he accepts to be the implementer, as a judge, of a law other than the law of Allah, knowingly. He should refuse.
 
But do you know what Ibn Taymiya said? He said that he should accept. Do you know the reason he gave?

He said, all right, under the circumstances, the presence of a Muslim judge who fears Allah, even though he cannot control, of course, the law, that's beyond his ability, but his presence in his position, is more likely in comparative terms, to bring greater justice because you know any judge can use his own judicial discretion. There is some area of flexibility. He can use his judicial discretion to achieve the greatest amount of justice as compared to a non-Muslim or a person who does not believe in Shariah or does not fear Allah, he could be an oppressive judge following the system fully and wholeheartedly, who would even bring greater harm to people.
 
In fact, some scholars even refer to an interesting situation at the time of Prophet Joseph (peace be upon him). You know Prophet Joseph was in Egypt. He was not a lawmaker yet he was the one even who offered to be in charge of the distribution of food supplies before the famine started.
 
Some scholars comment and say there is no question that Joseph was occupying this high ministerial position in the state position of power under a system that was definitely contrary to the teaching of Allah. There's no question. He was ruling or taking authority and control in a system where he could not stop, for example, the Pharaoh and other chieftains from getting more than their fair share.

Yet, still, his fear of Allah, his wisdom and the position of power that he occupied enabled him to serve masses of people who otherwise could have starved from not doing that. That's basically the reasoning given by Sheikh Al­-Islam Ibn Taymiya on this issue.

 
blackrose
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 26, 2008 09:52 PM »

If you are still against voting

then read

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2028/53/

and

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2028/53/
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Ya Muqallib Al-Quloob thabbit quloobana ala deenik


« Reply #7 on: Jan 27, 2008 02:23 PM »

As-salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,
I'd back Ron Paul if he had a chance. However, I think it'll be between Clinton and McCain (although I wish it was between Obama and Huckabee). I'm hoping that the Muslims will block vote for Obama, but not sure if there's been a call for that. I'm waiting...
As already stated, voting is most effective as a block for US Muslims, mostly because we don't have large numbers yet. Plus, there are no candidates that are even close to trying to lobby for the Muslim vote. HOWEVER, if we voted in BLOCK for the candidate that is the least-anti-Muslim/Islam (how sad that it's come to this), then we kind of have to (not said from a fatwa standpoint, more from a combination of certain scholarly opinions and common sense).

Otherwise, why are we here in the US, if not, to make it a better place?

"My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (Qur'aan 20.114)
"Our Lord! We believe, so forgive us, and have mercy on us, for You are the Best of all who show mercy!" (23:109)
"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves..."(3:10)
cheese
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 29, 2008 03:53 PM »

blackrose

Major Points

Your participation in the system of people who kill Muslim babies and rape Muslim women hinders Muslims and promotes evil in society- increasing discrimination, poverty, while taking away medical care from people the world over.

America was built on a set of principles developed by the extermination of the native populations so white Christians could steal their land. These are the principles they use to justify invading many other nations, stealing land and wealth.

If you vote, your ideas will never be heard, what will be heard is the ideas of the evil people you vote for. Your vote gives support to their evil ideas. By voting, you state they have the right to speak for you and kill Muslim babies for you.

Bringing your Islamic character to civic life supports such universal ideals as strong families, protection of the weak, and justice by refusing to support this evil hypocrisy of democracy by NOT voting.

You live here, try to move to the Muslim world if you can, unless you are sure you are here to do Dawa or Jihad. Stop paying taxes that are used to kill Muslim babies. It is reasonable to work to ensure that your wealth is spent to please Allah and not to anger Allah by killing Muslim babies.

CAIR’s research reveals that people who know Muslims personally tend to have better views of Islam. So instead of wasting time voting, do dawa, help people, feed people and teach people. Instead of campaigning for dirty Zionist partys campaign for Islamic parties.

Muslims have many friends who similarly wish to reform things we see as harming society—gambling, erosion of the family, questionable use of our superpower status, voting for parties that support gambling, erosion of family, invading Muslim countries for Israel does not make Muslim look sincere. It makes us look like a bunch of lying hypocrites.

It is our duty to give our leaders sincere advice so tell them to rule by Islam.
We should not support public figures that prove themselves untrustworthy and a benefit to the nation that kills Muslim babies. We should not vote for these evil people and their evil Zionist Muslim hating parties.

Criticism without action toward improving a situation does not produce respect, so don’t vote. Don’t take part in this lie. If you want to help, help. Feed the poor, educate people. But don’t support this system that takes food away from the poor and kills Muslim babies.


Blackrose your quote of ibn taymia is so irrelevant it is a joke.
You can’t use support for Islamic politics as a justification for non-Islamic politics. That sounds like people who justify ribba by stating Hallal Business is Hallal or a prostitute justifying her line of work by stating the Marriage is Hallal.
Ibn Taymia was the one who ordered People to fight the Tartar who invaded and occupied Iraq. What are you calling for in relation to the people who invaded and occupied Iraq?
More than that, the army of the invaders and occupiers of his time, “converted” to Islam, he still ordered People to fight them, and kill them. Why? Because they continued ruling by their kufr system instead of Islam. What system are you calling on people to support?
Have their evil soldiers converted to Islam? If so according to ibn Taymia we should still fight them until they rule by Islam. To the best of my knowledge, America does not implement Khilafah, in Iraq or at home.

Sofia
Obama is current going about shouting and screaming about how he is not a Muslim and how he supports Israel.
The others are all Islam hating Zionists too.
What difference does it make who is killing Muslims?
That is what the election is all about. Choosing who you want to lead soldiers that kill your brothers and rape your sisters.

Well I know if I talk about how voting in kufr elections for kufr parties is clearly Harram, the thread will get locked because of that rule in the constitution. So I am not going to cut, past and link.
I don’t think there is a point, deep down inside, you all know it is Harram? But it isn’t fashionable to admit to some rules of Islam, especially in kufr countries.

I think it is to do with bidda and Sunnah. Killing a sunnah gives birth to a Bidda, birth of a Bidda kills a Sunnah. I have noticed that people who take part in Kufr politics don’t take part in Islamic politics.
Khilafah is the system we are told to rule by, by or creator. None of the enemies of Islam that the Zionist Jews (who really rule America) allow us to vote for want to rule by Khilafah.
All of them have stated their love for Israel and its genocide against Muslim children.
So who should you support in politics?
The Zionist republicans, the Zionist democrats, or an Islamic party working to bring back the Khilafah in the Muslim world?
You decide which Kufr party you want to support in their attempt to get elected so they can to kill Muslims for Israel. I know I am trying to decide which Islamic party I want to join and support in attempt to stop who you vote for from killing more Muslim babies.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 29, 2008 11:21 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

While I'm certainly no fan of politics, the ability to cast our vote for whom we believe should be elevated to a position is a right granted to us just as it is our right to choose not to vote.  While we may not have direct contact with the President, we do have more direct contact with our elected state officials who are supposed to hear the voices of the people whom they represent and thus serve as our voice at the national level.  Further, those elected into local level positions are even closer to us and thus are to serve the best interests of their contituents should those contituents choose to voice their opinions and express their needs.

What we cannot do is opt out of voicing our opinions or casting our votes and then complain when things aren't correct or conducive to a positive atmosphere for all.

While enlightening and educating people goes a long way to dispelling misconceptions and I'm all for that, when we have people who also fail to strive in the cause by actions as well as words it serves only to support/reinforce those misconceptions.

As we find more Muslim candidates running for office we should support them if their platforms are such that they will assist Muslims as well.

The suggestion to not pay taxes wouldn't work considering that those who are employed automatically have taxes taken from their wages and those who are self-employed are required to pay a certain amount in taxes.  For those who own homes, there are property and school taxes to be paid.  For every non-food item purchases taxes must be paid.  For every utility or phone, etc. there are taxes to be paid.  For every gallong of gasoline we put in our vehicles there are taxes as part of the price.  Internet service taxes there too no doubt.  Everywhere we turn and everything we do there are taxes - both visible and invisible to be paid.  Even if we were to live on public assistance, which we shouldn't - we would still be paying taxes on everything else we purchase or use.  Much of the taxes we don't ever get back and often wonder is that money actually going to what it is supposed to.

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah
cheese
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 30, 2008 02:25 PM »

Alakum salam

What I am saying is the problem isn’t which of the two parties are in power; it is the Zionist Atheist system they rule under.
So whichever of the two you vote for, you vote for the kufr capitalist system.
The republicans and democrats are just two faces of the same coin, two heads of the same great Satan. When you vote they use your vote as a justification of their abuses. They claim to speak, kill and torture for you the voter. The people who don’t vote can disassociate themselves from the evils, but the voters can’t. Whichever party you vote for and which ever wins, you vote for the same Zionist armies that are killing your brothers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. Whether Republicans or Democrats win, the same soldiers will be killing in the name of the president you voted for, and if you voted for the one who lost. Know that if he won, he would be killing Muslims too, and he would be claiming to do it in your name, as you elected him.
It is the Evil American system that kills, not the poster boy that is elected. He is just a temporary face on the evil machine whose history is covered in more blood and suffering then any other nation in all of recorded history. Your vote states that the evil is a result of just one man being wrongly elected and not the whole evil system. That is a lie and that is hypocrisy.

“While I'm certainly no fan of politics,”
So don’t take part.

“ the ability to cast our vote for whom we believe should be elevated to a position is”.
This is just the opium the evil people use to stay in power.
The Zionist Jews control the democrats, they control the republicans.
They dictate the policy.
Whoever you vote for, whoever wins. They remain in power and nothing changes.
This lie they call democracy, is a ploy they use to fool the ignorant and stay in power.
It is the opium of the masses they replaced Christianity with.
If you vote, you state that you believe in this lie.
The more people vote, the more the lie strengthens, the less people vote the clearer the lie becomes.
If people stop believing in the lie then they will be able to start working to change the system instead of changing the poster boy of the system.

 “contact with our elected state officials”
You have this contact whether you vote for them or not. And they have no way of knowing whether you will vote for them or not.
What they do know is:
Who pays for their election campaigns, the Zionists.
Who owns and runs the Media that can make or break their campaigns, the Zionists.
Who runs both the republicans and democrats, the Zionists.
Who runs the think tanks that form policy, the Zionists.
Why do you think they suck up to the Jews so much when they are such a small minority?
Why do you think they ignore Muslims when we have numbers many times higher than the Jews?
It is not the electorate that matters; it is who funds for the election!
And it is the same Zionists who fund both parties!

“What we cannot do is opt out of voicing our opinions”
True, voice the fact that democracy is a lie, so people can start trying to make real change.

“or casting our votes and then complain when things aren't correct or conducive to a”
The fact is things will not be correct who ever you vote for. You are allowed to vote for a poster boy, you are not allowed to vote for the poster boy’s Zionist masters.

“While enlightening and educating people goes a long way to dispelling”

True.
Real change will come when the lie of democracy is made clear. People must understand voting for poster boys do not change anything.

“As we find more Muslim candidates running for office we should support them.”

No way. They assist their Parties. If you join a Political Party, you are forced to follow its Zionist Line. If you don’t you are expelled from it.
When you vote for these people with Muslim names, you don’t vote for Islam. You vote for their Zionist parties. You vote for Zionism.

“The suggestion to not pay taxes wouldn't work considering that those who

I wrote that in relation to leaving the country. If you make a lot of money, which they use to kill Muslim babies, move.
Move to a country where taxes are used for free health care for all and free university education for all instead of killing Muslim babies and Israel.
If you are too cowardly, stingy or greedy to move or you have a legitimate reason for not moving, try to minimise the taxes you pay. Work less, pray more. Just work to pay for your basic needs instead of working to pay for Zionist armies that kill Muslim babies.
Go to farmers markets, drive smaller cars and buy from ebay. If you can’t stop yourself from harming your brothers with your money, at least try to minimise their suffering by minimising the money you give to the Zionists. This will minimise the number of bullets they can afford to fire at Muslims.

“Even if we were to live on public assistance, which we shouldn't”
Who said you shouldn’t? Do they ask you permission to take taxes from you? Do they only take taxes from people they like?
Every penny taken from them is one less penny they have to buy bullets and bombs that are used to kill Muslim babies.
cheese
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 31, 2008 01:48 PM »

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Judge me this is who I am.


« Reply #12 on: Jan 31, 2008 03:29 PM »

With out any shame what so ever I am backing Hilary Clinton and just because shes a women, i know i blame my mothers feminism but nothing else we can say. My whole family is voting for her "we want to be a part of making History"
Go HILARY
 hijabisis
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 31, 2008 10:22 PM »



All praise be to Allah.


Quote
Alakum salam

What I am saying is the problem isn’t which of the two parties are in power; it is the Zionist Atheist system they rule under.

Walaikum salam wrt,

Dear brother agoldbe...i mean cheese Smiley,


I met a lot of brothers fresh out of the sijjin who express the same pessimisstic feelings you have Smiley  I mean, they are really upset at the system and see no way of changing it.  But the problem is not in the system, it is with us Muslims, and the weakness of our Eman, and our division amongst each other.  If you look at all the major conflicts in the world, Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Chechnya, Muslims are fighting Muslims.  Is this true Islam?

Its easy to blame the system, but what alternative can you provide?  You say make Hijra, and most Muslims are barely making their 5 prayers, how can you expect them to make Hijra?


You tell them to boycott the system, and most Muslims are dying to get on a plane and come to America.

Is this any way to establish a Muslim society?  


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So whichever of the two you vote for, you vote for the kufr capitalist system.
The republicans and democrats are just two faces of the same coin, two heads of the same great Satan. When you vote they use your vote as a justification of their abuses.

I don't see how the small minority of Muslim votes gives them any more justification than they already have.  Rather, if more Muslims voted, the politicians might be swayed to hear the Muslim side of things.  You asked for an example:  In New Jersey, when some Muslims were accused on terror related charges about a year ago, the Governer, Senators, and mayors all gathered in a mosque in New Jersey, had a press conference, and begged people not to associate these charges with Islam.  No doubt, this has to do with Muslims engaging the system in New Jersey.



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They claim to speak, kill and torture for you the voter. The people who don’t vote can disassociate themselves from the evils, but the voters can’t. Whichever party you vote for and which ever wins, you vote for the same Zionist armies that are killing your brothers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.


Not necessarily.  Did you ever hear of Howard Dean?  He took a real stand against the occupation in Palestine, and had a good change of getting elected.  If Gore had been in office instead of Bush during 9/11, and Allah knows best, the world would be a lot different today.  The Neo-cons had a hayday with President and both houses of Congress in Republican hands.  Everywhere you look in the West, right-wing parties are attacking Islam, while left-wing parties tend to side with Muslims.  This is the nature of people-based parties verses nationalists parties.  

Anyways, to avoid the politics, since I believe in the afterlife and that Allah will take everyone to account, let me say that there are some people who are more against muslims than others, thus opposing them by supporting their opponents is wise.  

The Prophet (s) sent Muslims to live under Najjashi, though he was a known Christian, and we have no evidence that Najjashi accepted Islam while Muslims were living there, otherwise his kingdom would have become part of the Caliphate.


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It is the Evil American system that kills, not the poster boy that is elected. He is just a temporary face on the evil machine whose history is covered in more blood and suffering then any other nation in all of recorded history. Your vote states that the evil is a result of just one man being wrongly elected and not the whole evil system. That is a lie and that is hypocrisy.

Well, if you said these words in most other countries, you would be in jail.  The point is that we have to be balanced in our criticism.  If you point out the evils, you also have to point out the good.  This is how you will effect change.  By affirming the good, and rejecting the evil.





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Who runs the think tanks that form policy, the Zionists.
Why do you think they suck up to the Jews so much when they are such a small minority?
Why do you think they ignore Muslims when we have numbers many times higher than the Jews?
It is not the electorate that matters; it is who funds for the election!
And it is the same Zionists who fund both parties!


It is true that special interests hold sway over politicians.  That is why we need to oppose the special interests by voting for the canidate least influenced by the special interests.



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The fact is things will not be correct who ever you vote for. You are allowed to vote for a poster boy, you are not allowed to vote for the poster boy’s Zionist masters.

“While enlightening and educating people goes a long way to dispelling”

True.
Real change will come when the lie of democracy is made clear. People must understand voting for poster boys do not change anything.


No one is claiming that engaging society is the cure-all answer for all our problems.  But in the absence of alternatives, it is doing little instead of doing nothing.

You are advocating for boycotting society and living in the mountains on bread and water.  Is that how the Prophet (s) changed the corrupt society around him?


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No way. They assist their Parties. If you join a Political Party, you are forced to follow its Zionist Line. If you don’t you are expelled from it.
When you vote for these people with Muslim names, you don’t vote for Islam. You vote for their Zionist parties. You vote for Zionism.


Zionism is not part of the constitution.  We have to do what we can to oppose injustice, and voting out evil people is a good start.  If more Muslims voted, and talked to the government, they would at least be forced to consider us, if not accept our positions.  If we boycott, we will have no voice whatsoever.



Finally, my dear brother Cheese, I pray you will find some sense in these words.  Trust me, I understand your feelings, having once felt them myself, and your opposition to the system.  But try to channel your anger to beneficial works that will produce positive change, not just angry rhetoric, and perhaps violence that does not produce fruits, as we can see all over the Muslim world.



And Allah knows best.


Shaykh Abdurahman

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« Reply #14 on: Feb 01, 2008 12:30 AM »

As salaamu alaikum

I will comment on a few points.
“Even if we were to live on public assistance, which we shouldn't”
Who said you shouldn’t? Do they ask you permission to take taxes from you? Do they only take taxes from people they like?
Every penny taken from them is one less penny they have to buy bullets and bombs that are used to kill Muslim babies.

Who said we shouldn't - you ask.  Any person that has ever gone through the humiliation and control of living on public assistance that is who.  The system - at least in the US - has caused the breakdown of the family unit and played a huge factor in the irresponsible nature of men; afterall they know that they don't actually have to take care of the children they help to create because "the system" will.  Muslims who are on public assistance are further scrutinized and in many instances humiliated.  Availing oneself of governmental assistance on a temporary basis is one thing because sometimes people do need the help and there is no one around to help them.  When people think of public assistance as their job and do nothing to better themselves nor their condition then I have a huge problem.  It is worse when it is our Muslim sisters receiving benefits because it serves to further support the notion that Muslim women are uneducated, subjugated and nothing more than baby making factories and that Muslim men are irresponsible, arrogrant and lazy.  Same notions apply when people of color try to permanently live on public assistance.

In order to meet one's basic needs/expenses working less is not an option.  The cost of everything is rising and earnings therefore don't go as far as they used to.

It is not always a matter of somone being "too cowardly", etc. to move to a Muslim country; rather it is sometimes a simple economic inability to move from where one is.  For quite some time I seriously contemplated moving (yes just me and my children - a sister alone) to a Muslim country until my father asked me what I - a single Muslim woman - had to offer another country.  Truthfully I couldn't answer him because I honestly didn't know, all I knew is that I no longer felt that the US had anything to offer me - except status as a second class citizen (a woman and a Muslim) in a superficial society that feels it has the right to categorize people based on the color of their skin and judges people based on the amount of material possessions they have.  So I had to seriously think about it and wonder if the "grass really would be greener on the other side" or would it be more of the same on different soil.  So here I stay; it's the only country I've ever known and so I must stand tough, stand tall and do what I can to make a difference even if only in my small portion of the place.

Still it is each person's right to vote and when you consider that the vast majority of Muslims in the US eligible to vote actually do so then there must be the strong belief that change can be effected.

As salaamu alaikum


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« Reply #15 on: Feb 02, 2008 10:01 PM »

Imam Zaid Shakir on Political Involvement


I do not think that voting (or political participation more generally) and Dawah are mutually exclusive. They can be approached in such a way that they are mutually reinforcing. If we use the political process wisely, as a venue where we can highlight the values of Islam through a carefully and wisely constructed political agenda, we can highlight a lot of the points we might try to make through Dawah to a wider audience.

Herein is a critically important issue. As Muslims for us to participate in the electoral process, particularly presidential elections, with neither a clear strategy, a well-defined agenda, nor with associated forms of local political involvement, then it is highly unlikely that we can accomplish anything significant.

For example, if in the coming presidential elections half of the Muslims vote for McCain or Romney and half vote for Clinton or Obama, then it would be the same as if none of us voted, because we would basically neutralize each others votes. We must have a strategy that details what we want to achieve and then identify which candidate can best deliver what we wish.

Hence, voting in and of itself, divorced from other forms of political action, especially action at the local level, is not a cure-all for a community seeking to enhance its power or influence through the political system. As a faith community, strengthening our core institutions is ultimately a more important goal in terms of what we need to do to ensure the survival and viability of our religion in this part of the world. Electoral politics may be able to assist us towards this goal.

On the other hand, voting does not have to be viewed as the “lesser of two evils.” If there are clear benefits we can secure for our community or people at large through the electoral process, it is incumbent on us to attempt to secure those benefits, as the essence of the Divine Law is securing benefits and warding off harm.

If we are betrayed by a candidate we placed our trust in because of certain promises made to us, then we have tried our best based on the information available to us and we understand that our actions are judged based on the intentions behind them.

At the end of the day, our stint in this world is to do everything we can do to attain paradise. That will be through our sincere belief in God and our service to our fellow humans. Concerning the latter there are many avenues of service and good. Whichever path a believer chooses, whether that is within or outside of the electoral political arena, may Allah bless that effort.



Imam Zaid Shakir
www.NewIslamicDirections.com



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« Reply #16 on: Feb 03, 2008 12:08 AM »

As salaamu alaikum

A friend of mine shared this with me.  While of course any of these types of things have no scientific value, it is interesting nonetheless.  Answer 10 questions and find out which of the presidential hopefuls is most similar to you.

 http://www.votechooser.com
 
I answered the questions and it is still a tie -- between Obama and Clinton       Who to choose  Huh?   And whichever one is selected will they opt to select the other as running mate?

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah




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« Reply #17 on: Feb 03, 2008 02:36 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

CAIR has put together information on where the presidential hopefuls stand on the issues.  This does not represent an endorsement by CAIR of any particular candidate, but rather is a means of providing information so an informed decison can be made by all who will vote.

For the most current information, go to: 

http://www.cair2008election.com/viewpage.php?page_id=3

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 05, 2008 04:54 AM »

Obama calls smear campaign offensive to Muslims


3/2/08 - In an interview with Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes, Obama addresses the smear campaign and deems it offensive to himself and to Muslims:

“One of the things that we found in southern Ohio - not widespread, but something that popped up on our radar screen all the time - people talking about it, this idea that you're a Muslim,” Kroft told Sen. Obama.

“Right. Did you correct them, Steve?” Obama asked.

“I did correct them,” Kroft replied.

“There you go,” Obama said.

Asked where this is coming from, Obama told Kroft, “You know, this has been a systematic e-mail smear campaign that's been goin' on since actually very early in this campaign. It clearly is a deliberate effort by some group or somebody to generate this rumor. I have never been a Muslim, am not a Muslim. These e-mails are obviously not just offensive to me, somebody who's a devout Christian who's been goin' to the same church for the last 20 years, but it's also offensive to Muslims. Because it plays into, obviously, a certain fear-mongering there”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


plz dont vote based on race and GENDER. that is not a reason to vote fore someone,,look at their plans, how are they gonna help the country.. we are in a serious time and we need serious change so plz take the elections seriously and encourage your friends to go vote ...for OBAMA...i mean..who you think is good... but seriously.

and ahhh its sooo close..think about our future and the future of our kids.. This is really important and serious
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 14, 2008 06:48 AM »

Some completely irreverent humor:

Amitabh for prime minister of america!!

http://badmash.tv/dishoom/

For example, Amitabh's plan for beace in the middle east:

“Arrey, of course there will always be fighting with Muslims, Jews, and Jesus-people. If you only have 1 or 2 Gods, what do you think will happen? You will fight over them! The answer is more Gods. When there are more than enough Gods to go around, there will be no more fighting. We will borrow about 40 or 50 from the Hindus, and you will see the result. The Hindus? They won’t even notice they were gone.”
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 15, 2008 02:39 AM »

As salaamu alaikum

Perhaps the tide is shifting and people are looking less at superficial factors and looking at merit and finding that those who aren't  the "familiar" (meaning male and white and Judeo-Christian and sighted) are the most qualified.  We now have two Muslims in Congress - first it was Keith Ellison (D-MN) and he is now joined by Andre Carson (D-IN).  In addition, New York State now has it's first Govenor who is African-American and visually impaired, David Patterson.  Although this distinction came as the result of negative reasons, it still represents positive change and a tangible representation that all things can be fair and equitable.  In fact each of these three areas of change are positive ones.  Still is this country ready to embrace a President who is either female or a person of color?  Only time will tell and history will reveal.

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 15, 2008 04:35 AM »

unfortunately it was on newsweek that the democrats dont have a chanceand mcain is more likely to win..whichi heard is reallyscary for muslims
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 15, 2008 03:03 PM »

unfortunately it was on newsweek that the democrats dont have a chanceand mcain is more likely to win..whichi heard is reallyscary for muslims

I agree, if McCain wins things will not improve for Muslims.  He is embracing the negative notions of others.    As is often said, "Let us hope for the best but prepare for the worst".  And part of the preparation really needs to be correcting the disunity among the ummah; we will need each other.

 
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 20, 2008 11:46 PM »

 salam

Does anyone else find it ironic that Mr. Obama, who has had to do everything to disassociate himself from his Muslim family background, could lose this election now because of the fallout from what his Christian pastor said!

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« Reply #24 on: Mar 21, 2008 05:50 AM »

Ironic for sure, but many people today were saying his speech on Tuesday was supposedly amazing and "like a young JFK jr."

In other news a new ad by Amitabh for PM http://www.badmash.tv/dishoom/3am/

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