// Honour Killing
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Iftikhar
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« on: Jan 28, 2008 03:25 PM »


Honour Killing
Honour killing and female infanticide come from Pagan-Hindu-Judeo-Christian traditions. Hindus idolise women as Goddesses on one hand, while downgrading them on the sly at the same time. There is nothing in the Holy Quran and the Hadiths that may encourage people to kill their daughters. Infact, Islam came to abolish the dark ages of Pagan- Hindu –Judeo- Christian traditions. Islam is a matter of choice and there is no compulsion at all. It is a misconception that forced marriage and honour killing are part of Muslim culture. Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities. Muslim migrants are worried about institutional racism, binge drinking, drug addiction, incivility, gun and knife crimes, high rate of abortions and teen age pregnancies. An average of 20 English girls under the age of 16 falls pregnant every day. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity. Muslim women feel torn between two cultures, thanks to the British education system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. It makes their lives very confusing.

 The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers. Educational attainment rises quite significantly if boys and girls are educated separately. The tragedies are an eye opener for all those Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to non-Muslim teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community and do not understand the needs and demands of the Muslim children. Muslim schools are crucial for Muslim children because western education makes a man/woman stupid. The hypocrisy of the Western society is clearly seen whereas an Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old aborigine girl in 2005, saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them and a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan. In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby and another photo showing a gang of teenage girls with anti-social behaviour and vomiting out side a pub, thanks to binge drinking.  Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslim schools are the solutions and not a problem. They help to strengthen community cohesion, not undermine it. Muslim schools stand as shining beacons of light, serving as one of the most crucial factors which protect Muslim children from the onslaught of Eurocentricism, homosexuality, racism and secular values and traditions.  They need to be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Muslim schools are not only faith schools but also bilingual schools. Infact, bilingualism is an asset and not a problem as perceived by the British education system. There is a positive co-relation between language and culture. English language is associated with western culture.

 The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are not enough schools to go by. The only alternative left is either British Government should introduce voucher system for parents to choose the school of their choice or designate all those state schools as Muslim community schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children in accordance with their needs and demands. This demand is in accordance with the law of the land because there are state schools already managed by private companies. Muslim community is not asking for a favour. It is their legal right.
Iftikhar Ahmad
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk


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« Reply #1 on: Jan 28, 2008 06:38 PM »

The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers. Educational attainment rises quite significantly if boys and girls are educated separately. The tragedies are an eye opener for all those Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to non-Muslim teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community and do not understand the needs and demands of the Muslim children. Muslim schools are crucial for Muslim children because western education makes a man/woman stupid. The hypocrisy of the Western society is clearly seen whereas an Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old aborigine girl in 2005, saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them and a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan.

I'm sorry but as a mother and grandmother, the idea of a 40 yr old man with an 11 y/o girl disgusts me.

In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby and another photo showing a gang of teenage girls with anti-social behaviour and vomiting out side a pub, thanks to binge drinking. 
In my opinion all the above in this paragrah and the one before seems like issues
that should be brought to all our attentions.


Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslim schools are the solutions and not a problem.
I agree that Muslims schoools would be a good thing for our Muslim childen, however I think since we make our kids, we should be responsable and fund the schools ourselves.
If we are not happy with state run schools why should we expect them to pay?
Yes, everyone in each country contributes to taxes, but why complain about a certain group and then expect us to have them fund us? Most state run money is gotten off people in illegal ways and with interest and other harem manors.
How can we say we don't like a persons ways and then take money form them?
That would be like asking a drug dealer or alcohol store to pay for our way of life.
I would think Allah would be most pleased if we funded our own schools with money that doesn't come from forbidden sources.



They help to strengthen community cohesion, not undermine it. Muslim schools stand as shining beacons of light, serving as one of the most crucial factors which protect Muslim children from the onslaught of Eurocentricism, homosexuality, racism and secular values and traditions.  They need to be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Muslim schools are not only faith schools but also bilingual schools. Infact, bilingualism is an asset and not a problem as perceived by the British education system. There is a positive co-relation between language and culture. English language is associated with western culture.

 The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are not enough schools to go by. The only alternative left is either British Government should introduce voucher system for parents to choose the school of their choice or designate all those state schools as Muslim community schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children in accordance with their needs and demands. This demand is in accordance with the law of the land because there are state schools already managed by private companies. Muslim community is not asking for a favour. It is their legal right.
Iftikhar Ahmad
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

It is also their legal right to not live in a place or to live there.
Things like the above bother me, if non Muslims were to go live in a Muslim country should we be expected to fund their schoools and way of life?
One group of folks that I have always been impressed with is the Mormons. I know much cause I have Mormon friends.
Not that's not to say I agree with everything. But they look out for their own and don't look to the state to take care of them. They have canneries, they help their own when in need and not just send them off to the sate for help.
It is something I admired about them.

As to honour killings? This paragraph posted really had nothing to do with the main subject
and thus I find the title of this post very misleading.
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 28, 2008 06:48 PM »


 The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers. Educational attainment rises quite significantly if boys and girls are educated separately.

I meant to comment on this also,
What does being poor have to do with anything?
I know several poorer families that have hig values and morals and people
of means who don't. I don't feel it is a poor of non poor issue, morals and values
are something taught at home long before a child is of school age.


Iftikhar
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 28, 2008 08:15 PM »

Salaam

London School of Islamics is an educational Trust. It's aim is to make
British public, institutions and media aware of the needs and demands of the
Muslim community in the field of education and possible solutions.

Majority of Muslim children leave schools with low grades because state
schools with monolingual teachers are not capable of teacing Standard
English to bilingual Muslim children.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual
Muslim teachers as role models. They need to be well versed in Standard
English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and
research to serve humanity. They need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and
other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots anbd
enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to
become notoriously monolingual Brit.

Please visit    www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk for more information on
this crucial and complicated issue.

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« Reply #4 on: Jan 28, 2008 09:14 PM »


Majority of Muslim children leave schools with low grades because state
schools with monolingual teachers are not capable of teacing Standard
English to bilingual Muslim children.
Brother, I'm not trying to argue, just as a parent and grandparent such
if a child is getting poor grades, be it a Muslim child or non Muslim
child wouldn't that be where the parents and Muslim community need to step up and
fill in the gaps?

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual
Muslim teachers as role models. They need to be well versed in Standard
English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and
research to serve humanity. They need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and
other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots anbd
enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.
A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to
become notoriously monolingual Brit.

If this were the case then the state would have to fund catholic and protesent and
Hindu and other groups of people schools. Then taxes would be so no one could buy food.
I wonder why the Muslim community can't build and fund their own school.
Here in the US churches do it all the time. The Baptist, the Luthern, the Mormons, etc.
But they don't expect the state to pay for it.
We can't expect to go live in other countries and have them cater to us
with our own schools and such. Would we expect Pakistan or Saudi Arabia to fund
Catholic or Baptist schools in their countries?


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« Reply #5 on: Jan 28, 2008 10:51 PM »

As salaamu alaikum

I just finished reading this post and the related threads.  I too don't find how the content and the title match.   And if it were to be suggested that forced marriages and/or honor killings are the direct result of attendance at state-run/funded secular schools then it gives the appearance that the victim (the girl) is being further victimized when the original fault wasn't with her.  Education is essential for all so the option is not to suddenly refuse to permit a girl child to attend school.  It has always troubled me that even if the girl has done nothing to prompt sexual assault, she is still blamed while the guilty party is excused because of "male weakness". 

While studies do seem to suggest that single-gender schools/classes are more conducive to higher educational attainment for both girls and boys, there are very few schools these days that operate as such; generally the only classes that are single-gender are physical education and health/hygiene type classes.

Many parents would prefer to send their children to schools whose values match the family's, however generally speaking the cost of tuition is out of their reach.  Vouchers for private/parochial schools have been tried in some areas and even some schools are now getting charter school status and thus able to have a specific focus while still maintaining established state educational standards and curriculm.  Islamic schools are indeed  cost prohibitive both for the full-time and weekend options and often enrollment is not as high as one would like.   Now perhaps in areas where there is a larger Muslim community with higher incomes and a greater sense of responsibility and accountablity for the next generation the situation is different.

Even in the public school setting, parents are not entirely powerless.  If it is felt/believed or even proven that the school's staff/faculty have little to no knowledge or even respect of Islam and Muslims then it is the parents' right and responsibility to address the situation. 

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah

It is undeniable that there are some immoral characteristics within society but that does not mean that we as Muslims will give in to those elements nor be sucked into the void of it against our will

cheese
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 30, 2008 04:03 PM »

“I'm sorry but as a mother and grandmother, the idea of a 40 yr old man with an 11 y/o girl disgusts me.”
Most people would disagree with you. Most people believe a girl can be married as soon as puberty. You have your beliefs; most of the world have theirs.
I agree with most of the world. Girls become women at puberty. Western civilisation disagrees, so western civilisation is full of unwed underage single mothers.

“I agree that Muslims schoools would be a good thing for our Muslim childen, however I think since we make our kids, we should be responsable and fund the schools ourselves.”

The thing is all other faith schools are funded by the government except ours.
If we have to pay just as much taxes as any body else, what does this mean?
Jewish, Church of England, Catholic and Methodist Schools have always been funded. Muslims asked for our schools to be funded. The government refused using the excuse you mentioned.
The government did decide to fund other faith schools recently, now they fund Hindu and Sikh schools too, but still make excuses not to fund Muslim schools, except for a couple out of hundreds to show they are not discriminating against us.

Honour killings, problem and solution
Honour killings are vigilantism. Some one does something bad, and people decide to take the punishment in to their own hands.
When does vigilantism occur?
And how do you stop vigilantism?
Muslims need to have respect and faith in the law.
In the absence of law, they have nothing to depend on so many take the law in to their own hands.
Muslims should live under Islamic law. When a family member breaks the law, they should be reported to the police instead of killed by the family.
A judge should decide the guilt.
The state should implement the Punishment.
If adulterers are stoned and fornicators are whipped, their family will have no reason to take the law in their own hands. Fewer people would commit these crimes if there were state sanctioned punishments.
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2008 05:00 AM »


Honour killings are vigilantism. Some one does something bad, and people decide to take the punishment in to their own hands.


Shouldn't that read:

Honour killings are vigilantism. Some one (usually female) is ASSUMED to have done something bad (whether or not they actually have), and someone else (usually male) decides to commit murder to preserve the family "honour."
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« Reply #8 on: Feb 10, 2008 09:42 AM »

“I'm sorry but as a mother and grandmother, the idea of a 40 yr old man with an 11 y/o girl disgusts me.”


Most people would disagree with you. Most people believe a girl can be married as soon as puberty. You have your beliefs; most of the world have theirs.
I agree with most of the world. Girls become women at puberty. Western civilisation disagrees, so western civilisation is full of unwed underage single mothers.


I don't think so, I know many people in other parts of the world and
none of them would marry their daughters off at 11 years old.
I don't know if you're a parent yet cheese, if not, come back when you are and tell me
if you still feel this way. Tell me after you watch your wife carry your daughter for 9 months, and nurse, love and hold her
and raise her for years that you could even think of a 40 y/o mans body up in top
of your precious little daughter.
BY the way most Western unwed mothers are not 11 yrs old.
They are more 14 or 15  and up. There is a huge difference between an 11 y/o child and a teen ager.

I went through puberty at 9 and at 9 yrs old I was no where near ready to be married, have sex and
keep a home. And I wasn't at 11 oe 12 either.
As a women I can't think of a single reason a 40 y/o man would have any interest in a child.
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 10, 2008 03:48 PM »

As salaamu alaikum
[/quote]


As a women I can't think of a single reason a 40 y/o man would have any interest in a child.

[/quote]

Other than the obvious; ego and the need and lust for control.  By marrying an 11 year old the man is getting someone that has not yet had the opportunity to develop the full ability to reason , rationalize and think for self; has limited education and can thus be prevented from obtaining more; has no basis of comparision to determine what is right from wrong nor fact from fabrication nor even a healthy marital relationship from an unhealthy oppressive and abusive one; is very naive and thus easily manipulated; primarily clueless as to what are her rights and thus blindly accepts what is told to her; has no idea what the world holds and the opportunities available to her and so will be forced into being satisfied with whatever is handed to her even if it falls short of what could be obtained.  It is further evidence that women are still deemed secondary.

We would never see anyone suggest that 11 year old boys are ready to be married because they would have no clue as to what to do nor where to begin.

As salaamu alaikum

Fa'izah
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 10, 2008 05:40 PM »

Quote
Most people would disagree with you. Most people believe a girl can be married as soon as puberty. You have your beliefs; most of the world have theirs.
I agree with most of the world. Girls become women at puberty.

salaam...
so let me get this straight.  You wouldnt mind marrying off your nine year old daughter?Huh?Huh?Huh??
Quote
The thing is all other faith schools are funded by the government except ours.
If we have to pay just as much taxes as any body else, what does this mean?
Jewish, Church of England, Catholic and Methodist Schools have always been funded. Muslims asked for our schools to be funded. The government refused using the excuse you mentioned.

Is this true? Because from what I know they are not funded. they are private.

Quote
They are more 14 or 15  and up. There is a huge difference between an 11 y/o child and a teen ager.
good point

Do you know what 'honor' killing is cheese? It has nothing to do with Islam. People are killing their daughters because they were raped so therefore they are ruined and therefore the familys 'honor' has been ruined.

And by the way 'western' thinking is I believe alot more 'Islamic' than 'Eastern' thinking because the people are more educated
cheese
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 08, 2008 08:47 PM »

I joined the board a while ago, and then stopped coming for a very long time because people kept writing strange things.
It seems like some people get their ideas on morality from Neocons.

There is nothing wrong with a 9 year old marrying a 40 or a fifty year old. Have you forgotten Aysha’s age at marriage?
And I wouldn’t mind marrying off my daughter at whatever age Allah allows.
Whatever age she decides and I as her wali decide to give permission will be based on Islam. Not on kufr law or culture that allows primary schools to give girls morning after pills without parental knowledge at absolutely any age how ever young.

20% of UK schools are voluntary aided, mainly C of E and Catholic.
When Muslim schools apply for VA status local government puts obstacles in their way while supporting all others in obtaining VA status.
Some of the excuses they use are incredible, in one instance they told a Muslim school that there were already too many Boys schools in the area (there were no boys state schools in the area), and at the same time that local authority constructed two Jewish voluntary aided schools in that area.
The worse councillors are the Muslim labour ones. They know Muslims will always vote for them. They refuse to support Muslim issues themselves because it would make them look bad in front of their kaffir masters.

Honour killings.
Yes I know that 60% of them are done by Sikhs, but the media, politicians and so called moderates paint it as a Muslim issue.
And in the Muslim community it is not about rape. How common is it in nations where Muslim women face mass rapes? In Bosnia when Christians used mass rape against us, in Gujarat when Hindus used it against us, in Kashmir where Hindus use it against us, in Burma where Buddhists are using mass rape against us, In Chechnya when Russians use it against us? How many of the women who were locked up by the Israelis were honour killed?
It is about kaffir immorality and Muslims using un-Islamic means to deal with it. It may take place on rape victims, but that isn’t where it usually takes place.
The best solution to people being punished un-Islamicly is to have an Islamic punishment ready for them and Islamic courts to separate the innocent from the guilty. So adulterers and fornicators are punished, but rape victims are not.
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 09, 2008 12:10 AM »

wow,

I have read and re-read all the posts and there is so much i want to say but really can't have the time to.
but here are some quick things

Brother Cheese,
You should have changed the topic name this seems to have alot more to do with school systems than honor killing.  Ithink that one should not expect the state to fund religious schools, of any denomination,  because those should remain private

ok about honor killings-- they are wrong in any aspect

and about age,
i personally wouldn't give mydaughter  to be married at such a young age

When the world pushes you to your knees, you are in the perfect position to pray

Be Yourself beautiful, and you will find the world full of beauty
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 09, 2008 02:19 AM »

salaam

Just because a girl reaches puberty does not mean that she is ready for marriage. .. There are many 18, 20 yr olds who are not ready for marriage just because the sole reason they are 'immature and not responsible'

And by the way studies prove that many girls are reaching puberty so early because of all the antibiotics and hormones they put in milk and meat ect.. so becareful about the food you eat? To be blunt just because you are 'physically' ready for something absolutely does not mean that you are 'mentally ready for something.

The fact is that 'honor' killings ARE done in many Muslim countries and many of the times 'Islamic governments' do nothing. It doesnt matter how many , one should be enough.. dont always try to argue ur point,

 sometimes you should read, reread, reflect and accept that maybe u were wrong and the other person was right.. im sure it scares you that all the things you thought were right , are probably not. But it only makes you more of a man, a stronger and better person when you admit you are wrong and learn from your mistakes .. if you have a  more open mind and a positive attitude towards all people you might see the world in a diff and better light inshAllah

Last but not least I wanted to mention about the topic of suicide bombing 'woman want equality' even tho Jannah closed it. I needed to tell you that Quran says that killing one innocent person is like killing all of mankind.. and in these bombings most of the time the innocent get killed another thing in Qur'an it sais that suicide is not allowed so however you kill yourself you will be killiing yourself over and over again in that same way in hell. Thirdly the meaning of Jihad is 'struggle' (this is proved from Qur'an)  so when you put a belt around your waist you are NOT going into Jihad because you are not putting up any fight obvioulsy only pressing a button or however you do it so it will not make you a martyr just the opposite.  Plus there was noone in the time of the prophet who did that. You are not struggling in anyway. So It would do you good to read and understand the Quran
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 09, 2008 02:08 PM »

Assalamaualaikum,

Ive written numerous articles on the education system (in the UK), and how islamic supplementary education (the mosque education), needs to play a central role in the community to provide tarbiyyah (character moulding in the way of Islam + education). In england, the government does provide funding for some mosques, with obvious monitoring placed on how the masjid uses the funds. I believe this is both positive and negative. Negative because naturally it enforces a "Big brother" society, but positive as many of the masjids normally do not use funds as intended, and this would be one sure fire way the money is used for the betterment of the masjid.

Studies suggest now that many islamic schools in the UK numbering over 50 now in the UK are in part government funded, which would oppose your view cheese, as trends indicate the government is changing their ways in this regard. (ref: "Wholeness and Holiness in Education")

The problem we face now is the level of tarbiyyah offered by the mosques + parents, and need for Imams who are able to communicate and understand british culture and challenges to combat them. Overseas imams although knowledgeable, tend not to understand the social challenges faced in this country.

Re: Honor Killings i believe atleast there is a consensus here in the forum that it is unislamic, and should dealt with in the strictest possible manner - i.e. in a judicial court.

Re: Marrying a young girl - based on a response by Sh.Yusuf Estes

It is important to state that Islam is about rights and limits, Allah swt has forbidden us to opress people.

In the Quran C4:19  Allah says "Oh you who believe! You cannot inherit women against their will. " - You cannot marry someone by force.

We have to first point out that  the hadeeths regarding Aisha (RA) marriage, was narrated by Aisha (RA) herself in Bukhari.

Secondly, we note that in these hadeeths, the parents offered Aisha (RA) to the prophet (SAW), it was not the prophet (SAW) who came to Aisha (RA). The parents were offering Aisha (RA) hand in marriage, which was customary at the time to do so. We know that the prophet (SAW) refused, because aisha (RA) went back outside to play. This indicates, although it was appreciated, the girl was not old enough to decide. This was at the age of 6.


The parents returned when she was older in Sahih bukhari later on when she was 9 years old. Shes evidently now older to make a decision and they were able to ask her consent.

She did not live with him until she was old enough to have babies. This is also a condition in Islam.

When the prophet (SAW) passed away, Aisha (RA) was still a young lady, yet she did not remarry or have any boyfriends etc. and gave a glowing account of their exemplary marriage in islam.

Also, when the prophet (SAW) passed away, his head was resting on her lap. This shows the great love they had for one another, yet she didnt wail or cry which would have been customary at that time. She understood that he had to go to Allah.

We compare this to the story of "Romeo and Juliet" - who are 12-14 years old written by Shakespeare typically associated with love, it cannot compare. They went against their parents, sneaking behind their back, there was no marriage involved it was an affair , then one comitted suicide and the other followed, a tragic result of an unislamic relationship.

Marriage in Islam is done under by contract and is an instution with rights and limits. Although socially unacceptable in the west to marry a woman of a "young" age, does not mean Islamically it is haram, as long as the conditions are met.

What one cannot do is stop a person from practicing their islamic right, as long as it is within the limits. In this case to marry a young girl , as long as the islamic conditions set forth are met.

It would be therefore futile to discuss whether one would allow "their daughter to marry at such a young age", since we live in different societical norms and values. However, do we really want to adopt the western values?  Cohabitation is now becoming the popular transport of relationships, and the institution of marriage is becoming marginilised in the west, do we really want to adopt these adulterous values whereas islam has already given us the rulings?

I apologise for the length of my response, and if I am unclear may Allah forgive me for my mistakes.

and Allah knows best.


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