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« Reply #25 on: Dec 03, 2009 10:45 PM »

salam

How many wives does that dude in your example have doninapond, I counted six- ain't he kinda exceeding his limits?

For some people polygyny works, for those who have been brought up in a society where polygyny is not the norm, it may not work.

One doesn't have to be in a poylgynous marriage.

If it works for you, well there you go.

For those of us who would rather not go there, well  that's our choice.



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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 04, 2009 06:43 AM »

As salam o aley kum, doninapond,
As far as the emotonal turmoil goes it will be the same whwther a man marries behind his wife's back and she discovers it later or he marries with her knowledge.
As far as the use of a marriage contract goes there are places in the world including the one that i live in where islam is rum more by the qazis and muftis rather than the holy bood and sunnah. And half of them are jahil.....And here we have nothing like a marriage contract!!!
As for your saying that allah does not make impossible a thing that he has made halal here is my quote from the Holy Quran
وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ فَلاَ تَمِيلُواْ كُلَّ الْمَيْلِ فَتَذَرُوهَا كَالْمُعَلَّقَةِ وَإِن تُصْلِحُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا
Transliteration Walan tastateeAAoo an taAAdiloo bayna alnnisai walaw harastum fala tameeloo kulla almayli fatatharooha kaalmuAAallaqati wain tuslihoo watattaqoo fainna Allaha kana ghafooran raheeman
Abdullah Yusuf Ali Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 04, 2009 07:05 AM »

Unfortunately, this is not mathematics. Maybe that's where these equations don't quite work out.

Let's look towards our Prophets (ams) for inspiration...  MANY of them were monogomous. Adam, Nuh, Musa, Lut (even though he had like the worst wife possible) ams... all monogomous.  Hadhrat Ibrahim (as) got permission to marry his second wife (and we all know that there was an element of jealousy that ensued...)... Hadhrat Ismael (as) was married to 2, but one at a time.  Our own prophet, (s), did not marry again until after Khadija's (ra) death. 

So you know what??  Who are we to be all fair and equitable??... and what is up with this sense of entitlement most muslim men have??

I say MOST - because thankfully, alhamdulillah ....some of them don't.

So let's say a married man is approached by a woman who hasn't been able to get married... instead of offering the finger to her |(his second ring finger, that is), why doesn't he instead try and FIND HER an unmarried husband.

Wouldn't that be all kind and thawab-worthy??  yeah.

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« Reply #28 on: Dec 04, 2009 10:06 AM »

Unfortunately, this is not mathematics. Maybe that's where these equations don't quite work out.


So let's say a married man is approached by a woman who hasn't been able to get married... instead of offering the finger to her |(his second ring finger, that is), why doesn't he instead try and FIND HER an unmarried husband.

Wouldn't that be all kind and thawab-worthy??  yeah.



Women outnumber men. So there is no man for him to find for her. If he found her an unmarried, it would only mean another woman is being deprived of a husband.
Widows are not the only people being deprived of marriage, many virgins never get married at all.

Secondly, our Prophet did marry more than one, that is all that matters for it to be Hallal and a Sunnah. Your example of Adam is something which Christians often use to attack Muslims, it is irrelevant, because there were no other women at his time other then his daughters
In the Christian book Muses was married to more than one. So to them it can be used as an example proving their hypocrisy, while it may not be to us.

I think what has happened is a lot of Muslims believe what is white is right. So just because White masters don't like polygamy, they want to reinterpret Islam to fit in with the white masters likes and dislikes.
Some people end this with polygamy while others want to make Gay marriage and Alcohol Hallal while making hijab harram.
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« Reply #29 on: Dec 04, 2009 10:40 AM »

Not sure why we're arguing over this. Those who want to enter into polygamy may do so, those who don't want to don't have to. Those with extreme aversions to it can put it into their contract. Worst case scenario if their husband goes and marries someone else, she has the right as always to go to court and ask for khula. So vhat is the problem peeeples Smiley

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« Reply #30 on: Dec 04, 2009 11:17 AM »

Salaams,

Sunday: thobebro His day of rest, this is why he doesn't need to be superman.
Was it so hard to work out?


Men dont need rest, basically. Or at least thats what our wives think about us :- /

And the reason why I said earlier that its near to impossible was because of 1] the busy lifestyle, 10-8 working hours, 2] Women - 99.9% of them can't stand sharing these days, 3] Culture/Family/Etc. But it would definitely work if we could make more clones of sis doninapond Tongue... But cloning is haraam I guess  smack *doh*

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« Reply #31 on: Dec 04, 2009 11:45 AM »

if you choose not to do or allow something that is permissible and recommended by Allah out of selfish reasons is that living up to your obligations as a muslim? or do you suppose to put selfishness aside for the sake of Allah?

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH:
IF IT'S NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS IT EVEN WORTH DOING?
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« Reply #32 on: Dec 04, 2009 02:40 PM »

Assalamo elikuim

I agree with Sr.Jannah- for some people it works and for some it doesnt. No body here is saying that its haram.

Quote
I'd say that's why you need more polygamy there. Because of the bad economic situation some men can't afford to mentain a single family. If there was polygamy, women would not have to marry them, up to four women could share one rich man instead.

So in short if a man is incapable(by which I  mean he is trying his best and not sitting idle) of making enough money that he should be deprived of family also Smiley What happens when the rich man with four wives become poor(looses his job, stock market crashes Smiley ), all the wives should divorce and look for another rich man ?
Some women like to marry not only for financial reasons but for support and companionship also.

Wasalam
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« Reply #33 on: Dec 04, 2009 04:33 PM »

That one is easy, the samething that would happen if a richman was married to one wife and lost all his money and his Job.
Either his wife will leave him for someone richer, or she will help earn money.
So if the rich man had four wives and lost all his money you could have up to four women looking for richer husbands or four women working togeather with one man to make ends meet.

So four wives are always better than one, quadruple the trouble, quadruple the fun.
 sis hijabisis thobebro shaykha niqabisis
Look they are all happy. You can't see whether the Niqab one is or not. She might have been the first one, didn't stipulate it in the contract, and is now stuck with it.
But even if that is the case, four happy people for one unhappy is a ratio worth keeping.
Anyway someone who proposed to me wanted to put that in the contract so I didn't marry her.
And I made a point of telling the one who I'm married to that I'll take new wives if I want to in our first and only meeting before we got married. And she accepted it, if she didn't I'd have said no to her too.

I don't really want more wives. At least not now. But I'd just like to keep the option open just encase I change my mind.

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« Reply #34 on: Dec 04, 2009 10:40 PM »

if you choose not to do or allow something that is permissible and recommended by Allah out of selfish reasons is that living up to your obligations as a muslim? or do you suppose to put selfishness aside for the sake of Allah?

I think this is a major problem in thinking which seems to occur solely on the topic of polygamy. Why don't the people who openly advocate polygamy, advocate --- living in the desert, giving away all their wealth and being poor, or riding on camels, wearing only thobes or eating camel meat, praying every salah in the masjid, staying up half the night in prayer. Why don't they follow the sunnah in every respect, instead of insisting on polygamy and forgetting the rest.

Islam isn't about blind following. It's about following principles and wisdom brought down to us in the Quran and Sunnah. Some things were made permissible because some people might want to use them. This does not mean we should try to force everyone into doing it. Islam came as a mercy, not what some ppl try to make it.

I also have a problem with someone saying that it is "recommended by Allah" and that anyone who doesn't do it is "selfish".  I can say equally that it is not recommended by Allah because He says "Marry One" first and then He says "if you can't treat them equally then don't". I can also say the person who marries more than one is selfish.

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« Reply #35 on: Dec 05, 2009 01:12 AM »

As-salaamu-alaikum
I would like to reply to the comment of my comment.
if you choose not to do or allow something that is permissible and recommended by Allah out of selfish reasons is that living up to your obligations as a muslim? or do you suppose to put selfishness aside for the sake of Allah?

your right this is the only problem where people get most emotional and that is because to most people marriage is a matter of the heart and we all know that matters of the heart are emotional issues. Some of things you mention for people who advocate polygamy should do shock me :
--- living in the desert, giving away all their wealth and being poor, or riding on camels, wearing only thobes or eating camel meat

I was shock because I did not read in the Qu’ran  Allah recommending any of that.

 And for every salat in the masjid we know that there are some that is recommended to do at home, and it does not have to take half the night to do your night prayers. And as for polygamy, every Prophet(saw) came with the chose of having more than one wife some chose to have more some chose not to so this just was not the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) but it was the Way of Allah from the beginning that we know. I agree this is not a religion we follow  blindly, but we try our best to do the things that are recommended to us that is in our ability. my point was that if your not following something only because of selfish reasons (pride, jealous, being arrogant) then you need to search yourself. My statement was not just about polygamy or women, the men who want a second, third, or fourth wife have to take a look also at their reasons why they want more than one wife, to make sure their reasons are in accordance to Islam.
      For us to say something was made permissible because someone may want to use it and not think Allah has a purpose for it is a  mistake because it is a part of Allah’s Plan and who knows the Plan of Allah. I’ll rather say it’s a solution to a problem that Allah with all of His Wisdom knows going to happen.
     Yes your right nobody should force anything down anyones throat, why should we when Allah gave them the freedom to choose. But if they are muslim they should be making their chooses for the sake of Allah only. I didn’t say if you didn’t do it you were selfish I said if you did not out of selfish reasons then you are being selfish. Surat   4:3 translated by Mohsin Khan states:
And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

It tells you about the orphan girls then it says to married two, three or four, so it does not say marry one first, it only tells you to marry one if you fear that you cannot be just, so it is recommended to the man to marry more than one. So the man who marries more than one for the right reasons (to protect, to provide, etc.) is not being selfish he’s doing his duly as a man..

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« Reply #36 on: Dec 05, 2009 08:05 AM »

salam

Hang on, where has Allah recommended polygyny?

Polygyny is permissible, not a pillar of Islam

You want to do it, do it, You don't then don't what's the problem?

Sr Jannah's examples are pretty much on a par, you'll get closer to Allah by giving up all worldly goods, the rightly guided Caliphat hardly lived in luxury, did they?

This is the silliest argument I've heard, nobody is refuting that four wives are permissible, any man who feels he can be fair to all four and wants to practice polygyny can, the sisters who don't want to be a part of it, can take steps to ensure they aren't ever entangled in such a situation and that is permissible too, we are given the right to  make stipulations in our marriage contract, any many who doesn't like this does not have to marry a sister who makes such stipulations. SIMPLE!

I also think it's utterly idiotic whoever said men don't need rest, it's not all about sex, there are emotional, and material responsibilities towards each and every wife and resulting children. There are daily responsibilities towards them for the rest of your life, especially towards the children of a marriage..... any kind of marriage.

Remember you will be answering for the way in which you bring up your children and how you treated them as well as how you treated your wives.

You want to do it, it is your call.

I spend each day praying hard that I can bring up my children in a way which I can Islamically complete my responsibility towards them. And I only have two children!


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #37 on: Dec 05, 2009 11:21 AM »

 Surat   4:3 translated by Mohsin Khan states:
And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

in the ayat above everything talking about the female in the beginning is plural: orphangirls,women,(them),(slaves)

if I had a store and you came in my store and seen boxes and said how beautiful the boxes were and I said take two of them, three, or four , but if they are to heavy for you then only take one. what is my first recommendation to you? 

recommend: to put in a favorable before another (the new american webster dictionary)

no it is not a pillar but it is what it is a recommendation. please do not get me wrong I am for what ever makes the woman happy for her if its not polygamy then alhamdullah, and if it is then alhamdullah.(Allah knows best)

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« Reply #38 on: Dec 06, 2009 05:13 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum  bro


Quote
recommend: to put in a favorable before another (the new american webster dictionary)


The scholars of Fiqh in Islam make a distinction between what is permissible [mubah] and what is recommended [mustahab]


I would recommend anyone who has an interest in this subject to read a commentary [tafsir] of the above verse to get a further understanding of the topic.

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #39 on: Dec 06, 2009 09:15 AM »

Br Khalid The Scholars are telling men to marry more than one wife. It is the Kaffir, the feminist lesbians, and the deviants who call themselves moderate and modernists who are telling Muslims not to.
For example just look at what the Scholars in Sudan, Bosnia and Russia say on the issue.

We are living at a time when Muslim women out number men. Scholars have talked about what men should do because of this. But many Muslims choose to ignore the scholars because they think following them would be bad for dawa.

Many women are too selfish to continplate sharing. And many men are to womanly to go against the dictates of their wives.
Men should understand that they have authority in the household and should act according for the welfare of the ummah. And do what is right for the widows, divorces and orphans, not just to meet their financial needs but also to meet their physical needs.
Muslims who refuse to acknowledge that such women are selfish also refuse to acknowledge the selflessness of women willing to share their Husband.
People who refuse to admit that polygamy is a need for this time do so because they claim to be defending the rights of women when in fact they are attacking the rights of women.


Chistine I think this will answer your first post:


This is by a Christian:




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« Reply #40 on: Dec 06, 2009 01:45 PM »

salam

A Muslim man who is content with one wife, is in my view one who fears Allah and does not wish to transgress his limits.

A Muslim man, who strives to provide a loving and happy home with one wife, in my view, is a man who has taken to heart the words'...and if you fear you will be unjust...'


There is nothing cowardly, or womanly [sic] about such a Muslim.

There is nothing cowardly or ignoble about fearing the displeasure of Allah.


Wassalaaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 06, 2009 02:50 PM »

salam

salam

A Muslim man who is content with one wife, is in my view one who fears Allah and does not wish to transgress his limits.


I would agree.
But I add a Muslim man who is content with two wives is in my view one who fears Allah and does not wish to transgress his limits. A Muslim man who is content with three or four wives is in my view one who fears Allah and does not wish to transgress his limits.
But anyone who is content with anymore than four is some one who does not fear Allah and has transgressed his limits.




salam


A Muslim man, who strives to provide a loving and happy home with one wife, in my view, is a man who has taken to heart the words'...and if you fear you will be unjust...'


Wassalaaam


There is nothing cowardly, or womanly [sic] about such a Muslim.

There is nothing cowardly or ignoble about fearing the displeasure of Allah.


Wassalaaam

It is all to do with his intentions. If he is doing it because he knows he is an unjust man and he fears Allah then you are right.

But if he is doing it because he fears his wife then he is a coward. A womanly coward.

Yes there is nothing cowardly or ignoble about fearing the displeasure of Allah, but there is much cowardliness and ignobleness about fearing a wife.
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 07, 2009 04:58 AM »

Salam

What's cowardly about not wanting to break your wife's heart?Huh??
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 07, 2009 08:46 AM »

Now closed due to excessive debate of no benefit.
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