// Swiss voters back ban on minarets
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« on: Nov 30, 2009 04:55 AM »


Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

The government opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland's image, particularly in the Muslim world.

But Martin Baltisser, the SVP's general secretary, told the BBC: "This was a vote against minarets as symbols of Islamic power."

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which fears unrest among the Muslim community.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration - and with it the rise of Islam - have ignored the government's advice.

In a statement, the government said it accepted the decision.

It said: "The Federal Council (government) respects this decision. Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted."



Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said: "Concerns [about Islamic fundamentalism] have to be taken seriously.

"However, a ban on the construction of new minarets is not a feasible means of countering extremist tendencies."

She sought to reassure Swiss Muslims, saying the decision was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture".

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claimed that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Amnesty International said the vote violated freedom of religion and would probably be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.


'Political symbol'

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC: "This will cause major problems because during this campaign mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"Islamaphobia has increased intensively."

And there was dismay among Switzerland's Muslims upon hearing the result.

Farhad Afshar, president of the Coordination of Islamic Organisations in Switzerland, said: "The most painful thing for us is not the ban on minarets but the symbol sent by this vote.

"Muslims do not feel accepted as a religious community."

Elham Manea, co-founder of the Forum for a Progressive Islam, added: "My fear is that the younger generation will feel unwelcome.

"It's a message that you are not welcome here as true citizens of this society."

Sunday's referendum was held after the SVP collected 100,000 signatures from voters within 18 months calling for a vote.

In recent years countries across Europe have been debating how best to integrate Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
doninapond
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 30, 2009 08:00 AM »

Time to boycott Swiss, I've started by changing from Nestle Baby milk. I know I should have started boycotting them earlier because of their evil business practices such as bribing doctors.
doninapond
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 30, 2009 09:36 AM »

The thing about Switzerland is the Muslims there are European: Bosnians, Albanians and Turks.
They don't see bunches of Niqab wearing brown people. niqabisis niqabisis
European Muslims aren't known for dressing Islamic or even practicing much Islam.
The country has few Mosques and a Muslim population of 400 000 and only four minarets!
That is one per 100 000 Muslims. I don't think it is possible to get a smaller ratio.
The only reason for this hate campaign is the racist party doesn't want Switzerland to join the EU, so they drummed up support by saying, "OK you lot don't care whether we join the EU or not, but our Party hates Muslims, and you hate Muslims too so give us your support and we will make life here as hard as possible for Muslims as well as not joining the EU!"
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 01, 2009 05:40 AM »

My compatriots' vote to ban minarets is fuelled by fear

Tariq Ramadan



It wasn't meant to go this way. For months we had been told that the efforts to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland were doomed. The last surveys suggested around 34% of the Swiss population would vote for this shocking initiative. Last Friday, in a meeting organised in Lausanne, more than 800 students, professors and citizens were in no doubt that the referendum would see the motion rejected, and instead were focused on how to turn this silly initiative into a more positive future.


Today that confidence was shattered, as 57% of the Swiss population did as the Union Démocratique du Centre (UDC) had urged them to – a worrying sign that this populist party may be closest to the people's fears and expectations. For the first time since 1893 an initiative that singles out one community, with a clear discriminatory essence, has been approved in Switzerland. One can hope that the ban will be rejected at the European level, but that makes the result no less alarming. What is happening in Switzerland, the land of my birth?


There are only four minarets in Switzerland, so why is it that it is there that this initiative has been launched? My country, like many in Europe, is facing a national reaction to the new visibility of European Muslims. The minarets are but a pretext – the UDC wanted first to launch a campaign against the traditional Islamic methods of slaughtering animals but were afraid of testing the sensitivity of Swiss Jews, and instead turned their sights on the minaret as a suitable symbol.

Every European country has its specific symbols or topics through which European Muslims are targeted. In France it is the headscarf or burka; in Germany, mosques; in Britain, violence; cartoons in Denmark; homosexuality in the Netherlands – and so on. It is important to look beyond these symbols and understand what is really happening in Europe in general and in Switzerland in particular: while European countries and citizens are going through a real and deep identity crisis, the new visibility of Muslims is problematic – and it is scary.

At the very moment Europeans find themselves asking, in a globalising, migratory world, "What are our roots?", "Who are we?", "What will our future look like?", they see around them new citizens, new skin colours, new symbols to which they are unaccustomed.

Over the last two decades Islam has become connected to so many controversial debates – violence, extremism, freedom of speech, gender discrimination, forced marriage, to name a few – it is difficult for ordinary citizens to embrace this new Muslim presence as a positive factor. There is a great deal of fear and a palpable mistrust. Who are they? What do they want? And the questions are charged with further suspicion as the idea of Islam being an expansionist religion is intoned. Do these people want to Islamise our country?

The campaign against the minarets was fuelled by just these anxieties and allegations. Voters were drawn to the cause by a manipulative appeal to popular fears and emotions. Posters featured a woman wearing a burka with the minarets drawn as weapons on a colonised Swiss flag. The claim was made that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Swiss values. (The UDC has in the past demanded my citizenship be revoked because I was defending Islamic values too openly.) Its media strategy was simple but effective. Provoke controversy wherever it can be inflamed. Spread a sense of victimhood among the Swiss people: we are under siege, the Muslims are silently colonising us and we are losing our very roots and culture. This strategy worked. The Swiss majority are sending a clear message to their Muslim fellow citizens: we do not trust you and the best Muslim for us is the Muslim we cannot see.

Who is to be blamed? I have been repeating for years to Muslim people that they have to be positively visible, active and proactive within their respective western societies. In Switzerland, over the past few months, Muslims have striven to remain hidden in order to avoid a clash. It would have been more useful to create new alliances with all these Swiss organisations and political parties that were clearly against the initiative. Swiss Muslims have their share of responsibility but one must add that the political parties, in Europe as in Switzerland have become cowed, and shy from any courageous policies towards religious and cultural pluralism. It is as if the populists set the tone and the rest follow. They fail to assert that Islam is by now a Swiss and a European religion and that Muslim citizens are largely "integrated". That we face common challenges, such as unemployment, poverty and violence – challenges we must face together. We cannot blame the populists alone – it is a wider failure, a lack of courage, a terrible and narrow-minded lack of trust in their new Muslim citizens.

Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss citizen, is professor of contemporary Islamic studies at Oxford University. His most recent book is What I Believe

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/29/swiss-vote-ban-minarets-fear

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 01, 2009 02:39 PM »

The irony...

Our local mosque committee submitted a new 3 storey mosque plan with 4 minerats and a dome 10 years ago to the city for approval on an empty piece of land.

They got it approved and they are now in the finishing phases of building the mosque. But because of lack of funds, they don't want to build the minarets anymore. However, the city will NOT give them the final occupancy permit UNTIL THEY BUILD the 4 minerats! (Because you have to build exactly whats on drawings you submiited to the city)


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« Reply #5 on: Dec 01, 2009 06:47 PM »

That is ironic UBAB especially in light of this new wave of nazism/right wing islamophobia spreading across Europe and N. America. Tariq Ramadan is right in a lot of ways. We have contributed to it by not building these alliances and staying hidden within our own circles. We are all to be blamed for that, but there is no doubt that this is all about racism and islamophobia. The street goes both ways.

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« Reply #6 on: Dec 01, 2009 07:55 PM »

That is ironic UBAB especially in light of this new wave of nazism/right wing islamophobia spreading across Europe and N. America. Tariq Ramadan is right in a lot of ways. We have contributed to it by not building these alliances and staying hidden within our own circles. We are all to be blamed for that, but there is no doubt that this is all about racism and islamophobia. The street goes both ways.



So True, you got to point the fingers at ourselves for this one... the hotbutton issue here is the niqab... younger girls here are wearing it and for some reason it's got the old men all up in arms .... (I think in the entire country, it's like 500-1000 out of 700000+ Muslims)

an aside...

I was in Ottawa, Canada in July 2001 when Dr. Tariq Ramadan gave a Jumaah Khutba at the main masjid. I still remember the dua he gave at the end of prayers was so powerful that everyone in attendance was bawling their eyes out ... even though the dua was in completely in Arabic.

If have the chance to hear him speak, do it...

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« Reply #7 on: Dec 06, 2009 06:04 AM »

Bern is reluctant to gaze skyward

Once again the xenophobic European ultra-right refuses to foot the bill for the legacy of imperial hubris. The decision to colonise another people, dismantle all of their organic social infrastructures, graft alien institutions on to their cultures, and otherwise cart off their natural resources will inevitably have repercussions. Instability breeds confusion and handicaps economic development.


A natural result is the economically motivated migration of the client-citizen to the centres of the destabilising power. As the saying goes: “You broke it, you pay for it.”

Slender, reaching skyward, calling the spirit five times daily to ascend towards broader horizons in form and function, the minaret is an architectural icon of Muslim culture. Travellers from Europe have wondered in awe at the grace and elegance of minarets in Istanbul and Cairo.



Far from a symbol of extremism, the minaret asks us all to look beyond the mundane or the petty differences and material preoccupations that bring tension and discord to our lives. Minarets are a symbol of calling humanity to a renewal of spirit and a broadening of horizons as wide as the sky toward which they point.

Switzerland has always had difficulty with tolerance. This time it’s getting silly, as its right wingers seek to rewrite cultural history and paint their own bigoted fears on to their latest muse, the minaret. But to what degree have we as Muslims provided them with easel and canvas, brush and palette?


The conduct of visible segments of immigrant populations in Europe is at times appalling. Refined conduct is itself a primary concern of the very faith culture toward which the minaret points, yet it is often lost on these economic migrants. This gap could be bridged by appointing Muslim imams and providing space for scholars who are themselves native to Swiss, French, German, and Scandinavian cultures.



Yet there remains a growing number of young scholars of European descent who have been qualified with interpretive and otherwise academic authority in Islamic jurisprudence and theology. Marginalised by immigrant mosque boards, they sit by as onlookers while this tragedy of social, cultural and intellectual ineptitude continues to unfold. The translation of timeless Islamic principles into indigenous cultural patois must be accompanied by a decoupling of eastern cultural forms from doctrinal essences.



The European newcomer to Islam cannot be given the impression that embracing his or her new faith implies the erasure of the validity of their own culture and that to be a good Muslim means to become an Arab. This is not the understanding that was brought to Timbuktu, Andalusia, Azerbaijan, Istanbul, China and the Malay Archipelago.


Finally, we have a chronic neglect of the aesthetic imperative in Islam. Just as we find western-style malls with the accompanied brashness of their advertising and fast food chains in sacred spaces tasteless, so to is the grafting of foreign aesthetics – or more often, some pastiche of them – on to the landscape of western societies. When we go to Malaysia we expect Asian architecture; when in Cairo, Arabesque. But when in Geneva, Marseille or Boston, we don’t. The shock of stumbling into a transplanted pastiche of eastern designs in western environs is akin to an artistic traffic accident.



I once knew a Swiss man of Turkish descent. Born and raised in Switzerland, he was a devout Muslim, and was even named after one of the Ottoman sultans. But he was a master of the artistic embellishments that adorn the eaves of traditional Swiss homes. When the Swiss would build a new home in the traditional style, he was a favourite to be commissioned to apply the decorative styles.

The possibilities for cross-cultural sharing are as broad as the sky toward which the minaret points.



Jihad Hashim Brown is director of research at the Tabah Foundation. He delivers the Friday sermon at the Maryam bint Sultan Mosque in Abu Dhabi

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091205/WEEKENDER/712049806


Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is God's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" [39:10]
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 06, 2009 08:36 AM »

So Iran is the only Muslim country able to stand up to the Swiss. U go!! Sad... what about all that black gold oil money that goes right into Swiss banks. Muslims should grow a spine and withdraw their money. -- J.


====================


IRAN: Outrage, and a warning, over Swiss vote to ban minarets

LA TIMES

December 5, 2009 |  1:07 pm

An East-West clash over a Swiss referendum last week banning the construction of mosque minarets heated up today as Iran's foreign minister warned of unspecified "consequences" if the ban were enforced.

Manouchehr Mottaki spoke on the phone with his Swiss counterpart Micheline Calmy-Rey. Switzerland and Iran generally have good relations. The Swiss serve as Washington's representative in the Iranian capital in the absence of formal relations between America and the Islamic Republic, giving them exalted status in Tehran's diplomatic circles.

But Mottaki had harsh words for Switzerland, saying enforcement of the ban on new minarets was “against the prestige of a country which claims to be an advocate of democracy and human rights" and would "damage Switzerland’s image as a pioneer of respecting human rights among Muslims' public opinion," according to a report by the official Islamic Republic News Agency, or IRNA.

The Swiss ban on minarets, a feature of Islamic mosques, has roiled the Muslim world. The Swiss government has said it would abide by the vote even though the government and parliament had opposed the referendum.

Iran's population is 90% Shiite Muslim. But it permits construction of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, though some Sunni Muslims have complained they have a tough time building houses of worship in some parts of the country.

“Values such as tolerance, dialogue and respecting others' religions should never be put to referendum,” Mottaki told his Swiss counterpart. He expressed hope that Bern would soon “take necessary steps and find a constitutional way to prevent imposition of the ban.”

An Iranian cleric today also condemned the minaret ban. Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamadani, said the move was "at odds with the protection of Muslim citizens' civil rights and will hurt the feelings of Muslims across the world," according to Iran's state television.

Calmy-Rey told Mottaki her government would "use all its means to support Muslims rights," according to IRNA.
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 06, 2009 10:58 PM »

Good news!!

==================
Swiss minaret ban reversal vote in pipeline

Reuters
Sunday, December 6, 2009; 1:42 PM

ZURICH (Reuters) - Swiss liberals are considering a new referendum to overturn the ban on building new minarets in the country, Sunday papers reported, as Libya's Muamar Gaddafi warned the ban played into the hands of terrorists.

Club Helvetique, a group of over 20 Swiss intellectuals, will draw up an action plan to overturn the ban, which has drawn widespread criticism abroad and prompted hundreds of people to take to the streets this weekend in Zurich, Basel and Berne.

"A new initiative is the most democratic way of achieving this," constitutional lawyer Joerg Mueller told Sonntag.

Voters adopted the ban in a referendum a week ago, defying the government and parliament which had warned the right-wing initiative violated the Swiss constitution, freedom of religion and a cherished tradition of tolerance.

Two complaints questioning the legality of ban had already been handed to Switzerland's Federal Court, Sonntag said.

Libya leader Gaddafi said the ban had done a great favor to al Qaeda militants, who would use it to attract recruits in a holy war against Europe, news agency SDA reported.

"The activists are now saying: 'we told you that they are our enemies...join al Qaeda and declare jihad on Europe '."

Politicians from the SVP, Switzerland's biggest party, and the conservative Federal Democratic Union gathered enough signatures to force the referendum on the initiative which opposed the "Islamisation of Switzerland."

Its campaign poster showed the Swiss flag covered in missile-like minarets and the portrait of a woman covered with a black chador and veil associated with strict Islam. "The Club Helvetique is an association of bad losers," Sonntag reported SVP Vice-President Christoph Blocher as saying.

NO TERRORIST THREAT
The United Nations last week denounced Switzerland's constitutional ban on building minarets as "deeply divisive," "clearly discriminatory" and at odds with the country's obligations under international law.

Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey said the Iranian government had summoned the Swiss ambassador to explain the situation.

"I don't know of any evidence of terrorist threats so far," she said. "We are doing everything to prevent the situation from escalating."

Switzerland, a country of 7.7 million, is home to more than 300,000 Muslims, mainly from Bosnia, Kosovo and Turkey, but has just four minarets.
doninapond
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 07, 2009 06:32 PM »

The people with there money there have it there for two reasons.

1: To earn Harram, by collecting interest.

2: To hide money that they stole.

If this money, and the money in America(more than 10% of all the money in wealth in America is Saudi owned), and Israel(Yes many bad Muslims like investing in Israel), and the money invested by Muslims in all the other lands of our enemies was taken out and invested in Muslim lands, Muslims lands will be the richest in the world.

We can tell people to do this, but Shatan will tell them not to.

So yes, people should remove their money from Swiss banks, but they really shouldn't have had it in there in the first place.

Allah hu Alim, I've stopped using Nestle Baby milk, But I really shouldn't have used it in the first place.

A late start is better than never starting?
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 09, 2009 03:55 AM »

Swiss Ban on Minarets: Reflection of Political Extremism
By: United Ulama Council of South Africa
17 Dhul Hijjah 1430

Fifty-seven percent of the 2.67 million Swiss who participated in a referendum voted against the right of Muslims to construct minarets with their mosques. The move was spearheaded by the racist Swiss People’s Party (SVP) whose slogan read: “minarets are symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation.” The SVP campaign posters showed minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman.

The Swiss government to its credit was against the proposal but could not prevail against the provocative and intolerant rhetoric of the extremist Swiss People's Party (SVP) The vote revealed the extent to which far-right racist groups were winning the battle of ideas on the future of Europe. The results of this referendum have been welcomed by leaders of other radical right-wing groups in Europe, such as Heinz-Christian Strache, leader of the radical-right Austrian Freedom Party, and Marine Le Pen, vice-president of France's National Front, which points to the possibility of religious and political extremism spreading further in Europe Muslims comprise 6 percent of Switzerland’s 7.5 million population.

Many of them are the refugees of the 1990s Serb-Croat ethnic-cleansing of Muslims in Bosnia and former Yugoslavia. There are about 150 mosques in Switzerland, only four have minarets which won't be affected by the ban. Unlike mosques in Muslim countries, these minarets are not used to call Muslims to prayer.

Compare this action of the so-called ‘civilized and democratic world’ with the religious tolerance which exists in most parts of the Muslim world. There is no restriction on building new churches in the Muslim world with Christian or Jewish minorities – Indonesia, the most populated Muslim country (13 million Christians out total population of 212 million), Pakistan, Egypt, Islamic Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan, Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, UAE, Kuwait, etc. The church bells ring every Sunday and Christmas is an official holiday. Most Muslim countries have Sunday as weekly holiday. Christians have held several top positions in both military and government in Indonesia, Pakistan, Iraq (Saddam Hussein had six Christian cabinet ministers including Vice President Tariq Aziz), Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Tanzania, and Nigeria.

The minaret unlike the Cross has no ‘divine value.’ People are certainly not attracted to Islam because of tall minarets. They reverted to Islam for its simple teachings and human-brotherhood. Minarets are architectural structures associated with mosques which do not have any political significance.

Farhad Afshar, leader of the Swiss Coordination of Islamic Organisations said: "The most painful thing for us is not the ban on minarets, but the symbol sent by this vote. The idea of putting issues related to religious freedom and human rights to vote is quite unacceptable and unjustifiable. Furthermore, the situation where the majority votes on issues related to the rights of the minority is fundamentally at odds with the spirit of democracy, which cannot be allowed to be used as an open door to incitement, and an excuse to pit citizens against their fellow partners in society.”

Mosques and minarets in European cities are manifestations of the proudly indigenous nature of Islam in Europe. It is tragic that the far right is stripping away at the illustrious heritage of coexistence between different faiths and cultures in Europe and replacing it with their warped and xenophobic political agendas.

(This statement has been issued by the United Ulama Council of South Africa (UUCSA). The Jamiatul Ulama in a co-founding and active member of UUCSA.
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 09, 2009 04:40 AM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.



As you may know, the minaara or minarets are a part of Islam since the time of the Prophet, alayhi assalam, as is indicated in the Hadith about Jesus peace be upon him decending towards the end of time near a white minaret in the Eastern side of Damascus.  Thus, through this law they have banned a part of Islam.



And Allah knows best.

Be merciful to those on earth, and the One in the Heavens will be merciful to you.
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 09, 2009 06:50 PM »

Asalamualaikum wrt wb,


All praise be to Allah.



As you may know, the minaara or minarets are a part of Islam since the time of the Prophet, alayhi assalam, as is indicated in the Hadith about Jesus peace be upon him decending towards the end of time near a white minaret in the Eastern side of Damascus.  Thus, through this law they have banned a part of Islam.



And Allah knows best.

They were banned because they thought they were Islamic, not in spite of and  not because of some intrinsic aspect of minarets that they didn't like. The Swiss might claim that the minarets have nothing to do with Islam, but if that was the case they would have no problems with minarets.
They banned it as a single step in a direction that will involve many more bans.
They just state that they didn't ban Islam just minarets the same way the French say Hijab has nothing to do with Islam when the French banned it.
The reason why we know the ban in France has nothing to do with a clothe on heads is Kaffir girls in France can cover their heads with anything they like in school. It is only Muslims who are banned from covering their heads.
So it is Islam that is banned in France not the Hijab. because there is no difference between the cloth a Muslim covers her head with then that used by a Kaffir to cover her head other then the fact that Muslims are banned from covering in France and Kaffir are allowed to cover their heads, in school, class or wherever they like, because france does not have school uniforms.
 
In the same way, anyone can build a minaret like structure any where in Switzerland. If a Kaffir builds a minaret on his house in Switzerland he will be allowed, but if a Muslim builds on on a musjid, he will be banned. the structures might be identical but the way these people will be treated will be very difficult.


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« Reply #14 on: Dec 11, 2009 09:51 AM »

the swiss are the ultimate prostitutes.  they will do anything for money.

they turned a blind eye to the nazis.  they kept jewish money and treasures for "safekeeping" during the war, and appropriated them when they died.  they will do anything for money.

you should know that "swiss neutrality" is a synonym for  "we'll get along with you with whatever you do, good or bad, as long as keep doing business here and give us your money."

they hide the fortunes of the worldest biggest despots and tyrants.  they hide the money of the world's biggest terrorists and villans.  all for a percentage!

they are paranoid about harmless bosnian and turkish muslims blowing stuff it. they are not worried about crazy muslims from the Gaza, Palestine or the other places blowing stuff, because they safeguard their bosses' money stashes and hence have nothing to fear from established terrorists. so now they pick on harmless innocent muslims, most of whom, don't even know how to pray.

you know regime change is not something appropriate just for eastern countries, some countries in europe like the swiss need it too.  america should just invade the swiss and take over their banks so they can't keep financing the world drug trade and terrorism.

doninapond
Guest
« Reply #15 on: Dec 11, 2009 11:36 AM »

I though there was finally a topic where lucid can post without bashing believers.
How could he possibly have a problem with Muslims here?

Lucid if you think Muslims in Bosnia and the Albanians and Turks are beneath Jihad you are wrong. They fought Jihad when they were attacked just like our Brothers in Gaza are fighting Jihad now.
The only difference between our brothers in Gaza and our brothers in Europe is our brothers in Europe do not follow the rest of Islam. Few Bosnians, Albanians and Turks pray or fast while many in Gaze pray and fast. But when it comes to Jihad they are all as Muslim as each other and they all abide by that rule of Islam as much as each other, or shell we use your words and call it blowing things up?
And just as you attack our brothers in Gaza for defending themselves, the Serbs and their supporters attack our Brothers the Bosnians, Albanians and Turks for defending themselves.

When the Kaffir call the Bosnians, Albanians and Turks moderates, they are talking about the fact that they eat pork and drink Alcohol, not that they allow the Kaffir to kill them without fighting back. Because no Muslim who believes in Allah and the last day thinks that the Rules of Jihad no longer exists. The Bosnians, Albanians and Turks believe in Jihad as much as our brothers in Gaza. The only people who deny Jihad still exists are the Qadyanis, and they are not Muslim!
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