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Author Topic: Dear 'Muslim' Terrorist  (Read 6244 times)
se7en
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 14, 2010 09:45 AM »

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sorry about the delay  Embarrassed 

I remember a number of years back Imam Zaid Shakir started to really emphasize, in his talks at various conferences, the need for us as a Muslim community in the U.S. to work on developing and strengthening ourselves; to build institutions and strong foundations, and while we should certainly still be concerned with and care deeply about the matters that are happening to our brothers and sisters overseas, we needed to realize our actual sphere of influence, and we needed to strengthen ourselves before we could do anything meaningfully for others.  If you really think about it, it's a very common sense idea.  The expression in Arabic is, "Faaqidu shay' la yu'teeh" - One who does not possess something is in no position to give it to someone else.  If we are not a strong and influential community, that is working on fulfilling the needs of its members and having a strong voice in the community at large, how can we imagine that we can change or have an effect on the country we live in and thereby help the Muslim world Huh?

SubhanAllah, the reaction Imam Zaid got from some members of the audience - the anger and emotion - was unbelievable.  "How can you say that we should de-prioritize and marginalize the suffering of our brothers and sisters in the world!?  Didn't the Prophet saw say we are like one body? etc" 

What we had was a failure to communicate.  People could not see beyond the lens of emotion that colored their outlook when they thought about innocent people - believers - dying and suffering in so many places in the world.  Feeling emotion about such things is natural, however, if they really stopped to think about what was being said; if they measured the benefits and the harms and the probable consequences, they would see that Imam Zaid was completely in the right in what he was saying.  And in truth, the course of action he was elucidating was in fact the only means by which we as a community could do anything to actually help or change the situation.

I feel that, in the same way, in this thread is a very clear example of a failure to really understand what Sr. Jannah is saying and presenting.  From what I read, it seems to me that she is in no way marginalizing the suffering that Muslims are going through, or trying in some way to justify the actions of U.S. foreign policy (which I've seen someone insinuate in another post, astaghfirAllah).  If we could just put a reign on our emotions for a minute and really think about what is being said, I am sure we would all come to the same conclusion, that these people who are committing these actions are really only causing more harm to everyone and making the situation worse.  As a community I believe this is one of our biggest faults - quick to emotion, while we see in our Prophet saw someone who was always calm and rational and in control of his feelings.  He saw taught 'Calmness and patient deliberation is from Allah, while hastiness is from Shaytan.'

The second point I wanted to make is the real confusion some people have about whether such actions are legitimate or not.  "Well, the Ft. Hood shooter killed soldiers who were going to go overseas and kill innocent Muslims - so in a sense its justified."  Or, for example, people quoting hadith such as the one mentioned above , without understanding them properly - to draw very dangerous (and incorrect) conclusions.  Such thinking is a reflection of what I think is a close second to our biggest fault as a community - a lack of depth in understanding our deen, a lack of deference to our scholars and teachers who have a correct and balanced understanding, and a propensity to interpret texts in light of our own feelings, disposition, or background.

A brief but powerful article addressing such misconceptions can be found here.  And I am sure there are many more which can be found, including some of the links that were previously posted.

One final point - undoubtedly, as Muslims in the West, we enjoy a sense of safety and security that our brothers and sisters in other places in the world do not have, under occupation and military aggression (May Allah grant aid and help the believers).  However, Allah is just and fair, and every believer has their tests and trials and this life is by no means easy for any of us.  In some posts I feel almost a sense of judgment - that those of us in the West have 'no idea' what its like for Muslims in other places, and being so detached, we have no right to make such statement against those who are "doing something" like this type of vigilante justice.  On the contrary, I believe that any Muslim who sees such things should feel compelled, by their innate sense of right and wrong, to call a spade a spade and speak against evil- even if done by a Muslim.  Someone may have very good intentions, but that doesn't mean that their sin is transformed into a good deed, or that we should look the other way and pretend it didn't happen.  In the time of Rasulullah saw there was a woman who committed adultery and she was given the punishment for that - even while Rasulullah saw said that her tawbah was of very a high level and that she was granted forgiveness by Allah.  Even such a person was still punished for their misdeed- why then should we think that because a person was doing something "for the sake of the Muslims" that they shouldn't be called into account.  And if, in so doing, they help tighten the rope around the necks of Western Muslims, suppress our activities, and subvert our communities, please excuse me for not feeling an appropriate amount of sympathy since they are causing me a direct and quantifiable harm, while Rasulullah saw taught la darrar wa la diraar.

May Allah (swt) grant us maturity in our understanding and in our behavior, grant us wisdom, foresight and deliberation, and make us people who hear words of admonition and follow the best of them, Ameen.

Allah knows best
wasalaamu alaykum,

7   
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 14, 2010 12:40 PM »

 Or, for example, people quoting hadith such as the one mentioned above , without understanding them properly - to draw very dangerous (and incorrect) conclusions.  Such thinking is a reflection of what I think is a close second to our biggest fault as a community - a lack of depth in understanding our deen, a lack of deference to our scholars and teachers who have a correct and balanced understanding, and a propensity to interpret texts in light of our own feelings, disposition, or background.

For a better understanding of the above hadith see fortyhadith.com under jihad.

May Allah forgive us and guide us all to the truth

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH:
IF IT'S NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS IT EVEN WORTH DOING?
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 14, 2010 01:40 PM »

jazakiAllah khair for that excellent post se7en. you said all the things i wanted to say but even more eloquently.

syid i didn't understand your post, would you care to clarify?

ws


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« Reply #28 on: Jan 14, 2010 02:20 PM »

For people to get a better understanding of the hadith that was quoted they can refer to fortyhadith.com under jihad. And for those who think that any hadith I use is out of context or are incorrect can you please be the tool that Allah (swt) use to show me the proof of my incorrectness so that I may get a better understanding of what was being conveyed it would be deeply appreciated. Thank you for your assistance. May Allah guide us all.

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH:
IF IT'S NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS IT EVEN WORTH DOING?
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« Reply #29 on: Jan 14, 2010 02:40 PM »

as salaamu alaykum,

Br. Syid, I really want to commend you for not taking things as a personal offense (which I really did not intend by my post in truth), and being open to looking at things from a new perspective - that is a very rare, and beautiful quality!  May Allah grant all of us such humbleness and eagerness to learn. Ameen.

I believe the first two lines of the commentary on the hadith that is mentioned at fortyhadith.com suffice in explaining what I mean:

The majority of Scholars say that the "people" here refers to the Arab polytheists. (my comment: meaning it is limited to a specific people at a specific time, not ALL non-Muslims.)
The same interpretation can also be found in the Qur'an in Surah An-Nasr.


Another opinion say that the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, was referring to all people, excluding Ahlul Kitab, i.e. the people of the Book. It was said that this hadith was abrogated by the later rulings concerning jizziya (compensation).

While there is a minor opinion that says that jizya is not to be taken from other than the Ahl al-Kitab (meaning that it is legitimate to act in open hostility against any non-Muslim who is not from the People of the Book), this is a very minor opinion.  Someone more knowledgeable than myself said on this issue, when asked about an opinion of Ibn Qudamah mentioned in al-Mughni that seems to support this:

The opinion of Abu Hanifa and Malik, in spite of Ibn Qudamah’s own opinion, is that Jizyah is to be taken from the entirety of the kuffar other than the idol worshipers of the Arabs, and some go even as far to say the idol worshipers of Quraysh only. There is even a narration akin to this from Ahmad, in spite of what may be Mu`tamad in the Hanbali Madhhab. Regarding al-Shafi`I’s opinion, this must also be taken into its full context because he acknowledges that the “Ahl al-Kitab” is more than just the Jews and the Christians and there are specific instruction for each of the Ahl al-Kutub such as the Samaritans, etc.

In short, the hadith we are talking about should not be taken as a justification for aggression against any/all non-Muslims, and though the generality of the language in the text seems to imply that, our ulema, through their acumen and knowledge and reference to many other texts, have drawn a very different conclusion from what the lay person may understand from reading the hadith.

This is what I meant in my post above, and I apologize if I made any incorrect assumptions.  The way the text was quoted in the thread, without proper explanation and commentary to help us understand it, could definitely be problematic in my opinion...

Allah knows best,

salaam,
7
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« Reply #30 on: Jan 14, 2010 03:26 PM »

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahhi wa barakatuhu Sister Se7en.

Between me and you: *p h e w* (had me on tenderhooks there, but it was most definitely worth the wait, Allah ta’ala raise you even further, and grant me an ounce of such far-sightedness.)

An excellent excellent post, may Allah ta’ala allow us all to heed the wisdom, benefit from such maturity of thought, and aspire to such an example! May Allah ta’ala keep you close to Him, subhanahu wa ta’ala, always, protect you, your blessed family, and children.

For anyone who still sees cause to disagree, I would urge them to just try and see things from the perspective Sayyida Se7en has explained. Just to see what it looks like. Even if you wish to differ and present some counter-argument, at the least, try to demonstrate that you understand what has been said and where she’s coming from. For all too often when people try to argue against an opposite view, their claim to understand the position of their opponent, is undermined by how they present the case of those they disagree with. It is known as a Strawman. Or they end up attacking the person and making it personal, rather than focus on the actual issue.

For the sake of judiciousness, show that you truly comprehend the position that you choose to take an opposite stand to. Don’t just dismiss it. Don’t just cite some ayat/hadith, which implies that the view you’re arguing against doesn’t also have some evidence and proof for it. That gets nobody anywhere, fast. And is, frankly, patronising.

Don’t assume your brothers/sisters who disagree with you are sellouts, pacifists, armchair critiques, whatever. Because that is all just ad hominem nonsense, and has no place in a fraternal discussion.

Just because someone believes in an empowering strategy, whose fruits may take some time to manifest, doesn’t mean they are sidelining the tragedies befalling our Ummah every left right and centre. Nor does it mean they are deprioritising a response to some immediate transgression.

A very real, yet simple example (unrelated to the actual subject of this thread, sorry), is the recent launch of the quite superb Ta’leef Collective. Watch the video on their homepage and I defy your tears to not well up. That is but one example of the sort of institutional empowerment our Ummah is in desperate need of, with a local presence, that is effecting meaningful change, and bettering peoples lives.

Brother Syid, I’m currently studying Al-Arba’ain [The Forty Hadith], so I’ll be paying special attention to that hadith when we eventually cover it. But since the classes go into some depth and are infrequent, we’re moving along at quite a slow pace. Alhamdulillah.

Insofar as using ahadith incorrectly or out of context, your concern regarding this points to your sincerity towards this Deen, may Allah ta’ala allow us all to learn from that. Know that using ahadith wrongly, or out of context is not the only consideration though. Imagine you had a friend studying to become a doctor, and you obtained all the books on the curriculum for yourself. Would merely the act of reading them yourself, qualify you to become a doctor? Would you, as a patient, want to be diagnosed, much less, treated, by such a one?

Well, the same parallel exists with the Islamic Sciences. Just accessing some website which gives a partial, brief, commentary on hadith doesn’t give one the requisite tools to be able to then apply that hadith to situations where they imagine those hadith could apply. Because that moves from the realm of narration to application, and application presupposes understanding. For in reality, the subject here isn’t hadith, but fiqh. And fiqh entails comprehension. Believe me, I’m not at all learned, but even if you were to take the second hadith in The Arba’in (The Hadith of Jibril, alayhis salam), you would find a gulf between what that website goes into and what a teacher in a darse would cover. Not only have I witnessed this myself, I’ve experienced it firsthand. And this is not something which can easily be articulated, for it is experiential. Some things, you just have to taste for yourself to fully appreciate. Simple example: You can read the explanation of that hadith on that website in all of one minute. Yet our darse just on this one hadith spanned multiple sessions (each of which are an hour long). The fawa’id [benefits], spiritual insights, lessons, angles, perspectives, nuances, that can be drawn are incredible. That is what I consider a proper reading and proper understanding, with the caveat that it be predicated in the original language of the text, i.e. arabic. But certainly not just a few lines on some website. Aside from the fact that that gives one no nisba [connection] to that text, in terms of a living, breathing isnad, which has been the Sunnah of this Ummah since the Prophetic era. There are immense blessings in this too. Imagine, Imam Nawawi – radhi’Allahu ‘anh – conveyed that text to his blessed students, who in turn taught their circles, on and on, till our times. So we breathe in the hadith they exhaled when conveying that teaching, orally. Is that replicated online, or via indirect sources of learning? No. So whilst useful as aids, they should not replace the proper building blocks for learning. We need living examples of the Prophetic imprint, not cyber-examples.

Your intention and ikhlas [sincerity] is apparent, in your asking for others to correct you. Indeed this is a high station, as it requires humbling the self to correction. But my dear brother, if you can – and I’m not presuming you aren’t already – try to find for yourself rightly-guided teachers who are qualified and authorised to transmit the teaching of such an amanah [trust], rather than rely on websites and the like. Channel your energy in this way and you will find yourself ascending mountains you never thought you could climb! For the Sunnah was passed by living example, not printed words. I have spent a little time familiarising myself with your past posts, and in you one can sense jealousy for (defending) the Deen, masha’Allah, may Allah ta’ala raise you by this. Your habit is to quote the Qur’an and hadith, masha’Allah, which shows that you are one who likes to remain close to the sources. That is truly commendable. Given that you possess this within you, then commit yourself to try and finding teachers who can lead you to the ‘ilm [knowledge] of both. You’re already diligent, so you’d probably make the sort of student teachers take under their wing, insha’Allah. If you need help with this, let the brothers/sisters here know, I am sure they would be delighted to advise and direct you accordingly. If you have constraints that prevent you, no matter, there are many online resources for learning. And by this I don’t mean websites and articles, but courses that actually cover texts. Texts which impart knowledge of various Shar’iah Sciences, be that basic ‘aqida, fiqh, tajweed, sira, hadith, tafsir, whatever. But know what is priority, and make that intention, and insha’Allah doors will open. Because reading websites and books alone won’t give you that roundedness, it’ll just give you what I call Kodak Islam. That is, snapshots of knowledge, with major gaps here and major gaps there, not a solid foundation nor the comprehensive insight into the interplay between the different dimensions of this magnificent religion. You owe that to yourself.

May Allah ta’ala forgive me and guide us all to the way that is best and most pleasing to Him, azza wa jal.

Abu Khaled
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« Reply #31 on: Jan 14, 2010 04:48 PM »

jazaak Allaah khair,  for the insight and the comments that was presented.May Allah forgive us and guide us all.

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« Reply #32 on: Jan 14, 2010 06:29 PM »

since fiqh of jihad was mention  this may be helpful to see when it was permissible and not permissible. I used "*(  )*"  to point out places of interest

Ibn Taymiyah dealt with this hadith in his thesis entitled, A Rule in Fighting Against the Disbelievers. He adopted another approach in his understanding and explanation of this hadith, which is entirely different from what is said by the majority of Muslim scholars. Hence, we have to state this view on account of its depth, clarity and significance. Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy upon him) said, "The meaning of the Prophet's saying "I have been ordered to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah. If they did so, then they would save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws, and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah" is just a mention of the objective during which fighting against them will be permissible.  *(Hence, if those people carried out what the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) asked them for, then fighting against them would be prohibited … )*Thus, this hadith does not mean that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was commanded to fight against all people only for this objective, as this meaning contradicts the religious texts and the consensus of Muslim scholars. Yet, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never committed such an act; rather, he (peace and blessings be upon him) used to*( make peace with those who wanted to make peace with him.)* (Fiqh of Jihad, vol. 1, pp. 327-337)

Regarding the fifth evidence, which claims that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) initiated attacks against the disbelievers, Sheikh Al-Qaradawi refuted this claim with the words of Ibn Taymiyah and his disciple, Ibn Al-Qayyim. Sheikh Al-Qaradawi stated,


He who ponders over the Prophet's biography will find that he never compelled anyone to embrace Islam 
The Prophet's biography indicates that *(the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not fight against the disbelievers who concluded truces with him.)* Books of seerah, Hadith, exegesis, fiqh, and the Prophet's battles are full of such acts, which are recurrent in the Prophet's biography.*( He (peace and blessings be upon him) was never the first to start fighting against people.)* In addition, if Almighty Allah commanded His Prophet to kill all disbelievers, then the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would have initiated fighting against them. In his book Hidayat Al-Hayara, Ibn Al-Qayyim stated, "The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never compelled anyone to convert to Islam.* (Rather, he used to fight against those who fought against him.)* In addition, he never fought against those who made peace and concluded covenants with him. This goes in line with Almighty Allah's saying [There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error) (Al-Baqarah 2:256). The negation in this verse bears the meaning of prohibition, namely, "do not compel anyone to convert to your religion." This verse includes every one of the disbelievers. He who ponders over the Prophet's biography will find that he never compelled anyone to embrace Islam.* (Rather, he used to fight against those who fought against him.)* In addition, he never fought against those who made peace and concluded covenants with him. Moreover, Almighty Allah commanded him to fulfill his promise to them as long as they were true to him. Allah (Exalted be He) says in this respect, [So long as they are true to you, be true to them) (At-Tawbah 9:7). When the Prophet reached Madinah, he made peace with the Jews and left them on their creed and tenets.* (Yet, when they fought against him, broke their covenant, and started fighting him,* he began to turn back their aggression.)* Hence, he bestowed favors upon some of them, evacuated some, and killed some. Likewise, when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) concluded a truce with the people of Quraish, he never fought against them* (till they began fighting him and violating their covenant with him.) *At that time, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) conquered them in their territories, while they had previously been the first to invade the Islamic territories. In addition, this had been the case with the people of Quraish during the battles of Uhud, Al-Khandaq (Trench), and Badr. Yet, if they averted from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), he would have never fought against them at all. This means that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never compelled anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, the people converted to Islam out of their choice and free will."
I know  it says his understanding of the hadith is entirely different from the majority of scholars but it may still be beneficial (Allah knows best)
May Allah forgive us and guide us all

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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010 08:39 PM »

Time to bring out this post again sadly. Please read all disgruntled mentally unstable ppl everywhere Sad

ws
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