// Cousin Marriages
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Iftikhar
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« on: Apr 19, 2010 05:34 PM »



Cousin Marriages
Cousin marriage is common in all Muslim countries. It is in accordance with the teaching of the Holy Quran and our Prophet had married his daughter with his uncle son. There were no defects in the children. Cousin marriage is thought to generate more stable relationship. Children are born with defects whether it is cousin marriage or not. Among migrant Muslim communities the defects are due to many factors. The pressure of moving to a different cultural environment and moving from their families, problems of racism and employment are responsible for the defects during pregnancies. The defects are nothing to do with cousin marriages. The hidden agenda is that British society does not want Muslims to bring their spouses from Muslim countries. A man/woman has the right to marry anybody from anywhere. It is a question of human right and the right given to Muslims by the Holy Quran and the sayings of the Holy Prophet.

I would like to see each and every Pakistani parent should marry their sons and daughters in Pakistan so that their offsprings could speak, read and write Urdu language and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. The racist British education system has produced only notoriously monolingual Pakistani Brits. Pakistani parents would like their children to be well versed in Standard English, Arabic and Urdu languages and to be part of the British society as well as keeping in touch with their cultural roots.
Marrying cousin is and has always been legal in the UK. It is not only migrant communities who have children with their cousins, rural communities have their fair share…truly… and lets not even look at the inbreeding within royalty and the aristocracy. How else do you think the aristocracy held onto 90% of the land for so long? Muslim community is an easy target to wag the fingure at. There is no hard evidence that married to cousin causes birth defects. Before picking on Pakistanis just remember that Queen and Prince Phillip are third cousins. Glass houses…stone…. I do not think fingers should be pointed at Pakistani culture; it is another witch hunt against Muslim community. Native English people marry their cousins as well and have done for centuries. British society is ignorant regarding UK law. Henry V111 changed the law so he could marry his cousin. And it still remains legal to marry your cousin in UK today. In Britain, every Pakistani is not a Muslim and neither do they all get married to their cousins.  I am sick of British media and politicians like Baroness Ruth Deech and Keighly MP Ann Cryer bashing Muslim communities every day. The hatred towards Muslim communities has grown to a level that defies all logic and even affront to British values. The problem is that Britain has never made communities feel part of British identity and people lives “parallel lives”. Faith schools are part and parcel of British education system but Muslim schools are being discouraged and regarded as “Osama bib Laden Academies.
Iftikhar Ahmad
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 19, 2010 07:17 PM »

you're joking right?

why would anyone want to marry their not-so-distant cousin? this marrying your cousin stuff is cultural stuff, it has nothing to do with islam. 

and what is it with this urdu literature stuff and accusations of racism?
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 19, 2010 07:30 PM »

salam


How can suffering racism cause birth defects? Or moving to a new country unless it's infected with some kind of chemical or radiation ro something?

I didn't think Islam particularly endorsed cousin marriages, the way I understood it is that it's allowed, as is marrying a Muslim one is not related to. No pressure!

I doubt the UK will outlaw cousin marriages, would be far too diffcult to police, people who wanted to would still bring girls and boys from back home, the difference being they'll merely claim the spouse is a neighbour or a friend of a friend or a girl/boy they met and fell in love with on holiday, and gosh how surprising if they have a similar genetic something or other.




Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 19, 2010 07:34 PM »

Assalaamu Alaykum.

I don't have the hadith handy, but I believe that Prophet Muhammad (ssws) said that it was ok to marry cousins, but not to do it too often.  This has also been shown in recent scientific studies that cousin marrying doesn't create birth defects or illness as long as it doesn't keep happening generation after generation.  Brother, you mentioned about royal families marrying cousins.  This is true, but look at the trouble it caused the Russian royal family with hemophilia.

My husband suffers from FMF (familial Mediterranean fever).  It's caused by too much cousin marrying.  His dad developed it when he was about 40.  My husband and his brothers started getting it in their 20s and 30s.  There are now several young children in his village who are now showing up with this painful crippling disease.  

As show by the hadith, if you want to get married to a cousin, fine.  But just don't keep doing it generation after generation....

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« Reply #4 on: Apr 19, 2010 07:50 PM »

My daughter was married to her first cousin, has two grown up young children
without any defects. My eldest brother was married to his first cousin with
seven children. Four of them are medical doctors and not a single child has
any defects. Million of Muslims through out the world are married to their
first cousins. Some of them have defective children. I know a family with
three defective children. They have no relation with each other.  My cousin
married a Hindu girl in canada and they have a girl with some sorts of
defects. Doctor has advised them not to have any more children. My nephew in
Pakistan was married to his first cousin. They have three highly educated children.

The ground reality is that British society does not want Muslim parents to
get marry their children back home so that their grand children could learn their mother tongues. Human being is a product of his culture,
language and faith. There is a positive co-relation between language and culture. If Muslims become notoriously monolingual Brits than there is a likely hood that they will adopt English culture. They will still be the underdogs of the British society. In the past they were victim of Paki-bashing in all walks of life by the British society becuae majority of them were not well versed in local accents. Now Muslim youths born and educated by British education system are being victim of terrorism by British establishment. Thousands of them are being searched by Police in streets and many of them are behind the bar without any trial. A lot of Muslim youths are imprisoned by British courts on the slightest excuses. The number of Muslim prisoners is on the increase in British jails. When they come out of jail they will become real criminals and terrorists while British foreign minister has said that Muslims are law abiding and committed citizens.
 
 Majority of Muslims
are from Pakistan. Their culture and language is differnt from Bengali or
Gujrati or Turkish and Arabs. They have only faith in common. They only marry
among their own communities  because
of culture and language. This is the ground reality.

In the 70s, when I raised ithe issue of bilingualism and Muslim schools, I
was given the impression that British education system does not believe in
bilingualism. According to varities of studies, a child will suffer if
he/she finds himself cut off from his/her cultural and linguistic roots.
Arabic is our religious language and each and every Muslim must be well
versd in Quranic Arabic. Urdu is our social and emotional language and majority of Muslims from the sub-continet must learn and be well versed in Urdu to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. This the main reason why I believe that Pakistani
parents must find marriage partners from Pakistan for their children.
Pakistani children and youths suffer more than others because they find
themselves cut off from the literature and poetry. Majority of them are not
even well versed in Standard English. This is the main rason why majority of
Pakistani children leave schools without goood qualification. English is
their economic language while Urdu is their social and emotional and Arabic
is their religious language.

I am concerned with the education of bilingual Muslim children. I set up the
first Muslim school in London in 1981 and now there are round about 140
Muslim schools and only 11 are state funded. I would like to see each and
every Muslim child to be in a Muslim school.

A study by Bristol University reveals that a high level of racial
segregation in Oldham schools and tension between communities resulted in
recent riots in 2001. The solution is that those schools where Muslim
children are majority, may be designated as Muslim community schools. The
native parents do not want their children to be educated along with migrant
chiildren. As soon as they find that the number of other children are on the
increase, they move their children to those schools where native children
are in majority.

There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim children are in majority.
In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community
schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. There is no place for
a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.
Please visit   www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk for more information on
this complicated and complicated issue.
Kind regards.
Fozia
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 19, 2010 07:59 PM »

salam


Well if you're talking about marrying within family's to preserve the Urdu language, I'd rather marry a man who speaks a language other than Urdu, maybe Persian I love Persian then our children could be multi lingual.

My sister married a guy from back home, of her three children not one speaks Urdu, both mine do speak Urdu and English a little Arabic (which they're learning so inshallah will improve), and basic French.

Marriage is not the only way to learn a language, should I have any further children they will all speak and read Urdu, because it will be learnt at home from me inshallah!


Also genetic defects happen if inter marriages occur over a span of generations, the European royals didn't suffer birth defects immediately it took time..........

Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 19, 2010 09:28 PM »

My daughter was married to her first cousin, has two grown up young children
without any defects. My eldest brother was married to his first cousin with
seven children. Four of them are medical doctors and not a single child has
any defects.

i think it is probably not very useful to argue with you. but the point about cousin marriages is that IF the bloodline carries any genetic defects, then by marrying off two people with the same defects dramatically increases the probability of defects.  If the bloodline is without defects then cousins, even brothers and sisters can marry and nothing may happen to them. 

Quote

 Majority of Muslims
are from Pakistan. Their culture and language is differnt from Bengali or
Gujrati or Turkish and Arabs. They have only faith in common. They only marry
among their own communities  because
of culture and language. This is the ground reality.

Arabic is our religious language and each and every Muslim must be well
versd in Quranic Arabic. Urdu is our social and emotional language and majority of Muslims from the sub-continet must learn and be well versed in Urdu to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. This the main reason why I believe that Pakistani
parents must find marriage partners from Pakistan for their children.
Pakistani children and youths suffer more than others because they find
themselves cut off from the literature and poetry. Majority of them are not
even well versed in Standard English. This is the main rason why majority of
Pakistani children leave schools without goood qualification. English is
their economic language while Urdu is their social and emotional and Arabic
is their religious language.


that's some pretty bizarre stuff.  it seems like you really don't even believe in bilingualism -- just urdu and english.  i think we all know how that mentality worked out: today we have a bangladesh despite the best efforts fanatics raping and pillaging  in the name of urdu and supposed islamic unity.
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 20, 2010 04:31 AM »

salaam

hmm I'm not sure brother how Urdu can be preserved just by marrying a Pakistani?  There are many here that have both paki parents but cannot speak Urdu. The only reason I can speak well is because I have been going to Pakistan every couple of years since birth and my mom made us basically

Yeah mulitlingual is a good idea Fozi:)

So Fozia you know how to read Urdu?Huh? Did you grow up in Pakistan? or how ?
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 20, 2010 07:59 AM »

salam


We learned to read Urdu at madrassa, all the deeny talim books are in urdu. The other girls were all gujurati, I was the only one who spoke Urdu already, so I picked up the reading very easily, as I understood what I was reading!


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 20, 2010 12:54 PM »

I appreciate the idea of preserving the Urdu language...

But it's not going to happen with cousin marriages.  Especially with the serious medical issues occurring.  You may not have them in YOUR family... but let me tell you about my family: on my dad's side, my grandfather married his cousin, who passed away, leaving behind 6 boys.  I have no information about earlier generations, but cousin marriages were no doubt practiced more heavily before... He remarried a young girl who was orphaned very young (not related), and he had 4 kids... one of whom is my dad. My grandfather's brother (also married to a cousin)... had 8 sons and i'm not sure how many daughters, who have kids, who have kids too...My dad and his 3 siblings who have the same mother - none of them married in family... it just didn't work out that way. My 6 step uncles.... ALL (except 1) married first cousins.  Their kids... many married first cousins (my grandfather's brother's kids). THEIR kids are up for marriage again... some of them are engaged to first cousins.  I have about 50 first cousins (many married to second cousins), and LORD KNOWS how many second cousins, on my dad's side... many of them have NO kids.  They just can't conceive. Medical mystery? Maybe... but the doctors say that generations of intermarrying is the likely cause.

Honestly, I appreciate WHY they marry their cousins... it's the idea that "no woman gets left behind"... that every single one of them has a husband and a home (unfortunately though... no kids).... I've seen my family tree man....one of my second cousins...one who has no kids... is diligently working on it as her one of her life's projects.... it's crazyyy entangled.  And huge.  I only looked at the section which actually had my name on it.  Next time I head to Karachi, I'm going to make sure she adds my daughter's name on it Wink 

Anyway...Most people out in the West who get married to their cousins - guess what?  The cousin moves out to the West... kids still grow up illiterate in Urdu. 

Its unfortunate that the language is dying out so fast, but it has to do with the ridiculous schooling system in Pakistan, with the fact that there are no explicit government policies to support the language, the fact that every province has it's own provincial language, that if you look at the Urdu newspapers, every year more and more words are being typed out in English, rather than phonetically written in Urdu, or invented, the fact that no one really converses fully in urdu (except that young kid on Business Plus.. who bangs out these Urdu business terms like no tomorrow) ... And frankly... have you ever tried publishing something in Urdu? No?  I have... there's this RIDICULOUS software, the only one that exists.... InPage or something... it's so unbelievably difficult, that I think I cried when I had to publish a ONE PAGE document.  It took me about 6 days (admittedly, writing Urdu for me is a big chore anyway). 

So what do you expect?  Maybe, instead of supporting a trend that is DYING... you should do something like set up a Pakistani Writer's Club.... the one here in Riyadh does a fantastic job of promoting the Urdu language in the city... by setting up summer camps for kids, putting out a newspaper... etc etc.if you're a techy and love your language... how about developing another software?

When we do shows about Pakistani culture.... (ever been to one?) ... most likely some kids will do a pathetic little dance to a Bollywood song.  Why don't just leave the dancing to the Indians?  They're better at it, frankly.

All the shows on TV... holy cow... including the news... are either about terrible atrocities happening in our country OR our next door neighbors. 

i think you have good intentions... redirect them, though... don't make this a philosophical debate... the medical debate has already won this one over.

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« Reply #10 on: Apr 20, 2010 04:05 PM »

as-salaamu-alaikum, I don't quite understand the debate,  the Qu'ran  surat 4:23 translated by Mohsin Khan states:

Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

therefore marry cousins is permissible,  no matter what you think or others tell you or what the reasons for doing it is. how can you have any doubt about something Allah has made clear.

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH:
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 20, 2010 06:27 PM »

Really I'm going to try and keep a very level head when replying.... and then I'm taking a good long Madina break, inshaAllah...

I thought the debate was about preserving the Urdu language through cousin marriages... maybe I read the original post incorrectly?

Cousin marriages are permissible... I don't think anyone is denying otherwise.

Are they recommended?  Why or why not?

And if you know that there are some medical grounds to avoid marrying cousins through generations... why wouldn't you heed that advice... especially since there is NOTHING wrong with marrying outside of your clan, but rather... it's encouraged in Islam, as per the sunnah of the Prophet (saws)...

Wasalaam...
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 20, 2010 06:29 PM »

salaam

Good points sister Just One
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 24, 2010 05:41 PM »


therefore marry cousins is permissible,  no matter what you think or others tell you or what the reasons for doing it is. how can you have any doubt about something Allah has made clear.


Just because Muslims are allowed to do a particular thing, doesn't mean they ought to.  A man can divorce his wife for trivial reasons (burnt breakfast toast, wrinkled shirt); he marry other women and keep them a secret from his current wife/wives; he can forbid his wife from leaving the home and order her around like a slave.  Doesn't mean he OUGHT TO or that these behaviors will be rewarded. Just means it's permissible.

Multiple generations of first cousins marrying each other can lead to very serious genetic issues, and this is something that has been noted in a number of places, including Saudi Arabia.  http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html?sec=health

There's something to be said for family trees with more than one branch.
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 26, 2010 03:48 AM »

Salam,

Back to this topic again huh? I think we had this debate when the article from the NYT or somewhere was posted about "Cousin Marriages Not so Bad" or whatever it was. It's true it is permissible in our deen, no doubt about it. I have no problem with someone wanting to marry their cousin or not wanting to marry their cousin.

What I do question is wanting all Pakistani parents to marry their kids off to their cousins in Pakistan. Umm I would call this a lot of culturalism, even racism. What about all the good brothers/sisters spouses in the UK or wherever. This might offend some Pakistanis, but just knowing Urdu is not going to keep your kids Muslim. Loving the beauty of Iqbal in the original language is not going to preserve Islam. Sorry it just isn't. I'd even say that all this culturalism is doing the opposite. It's making all these kids extremely messed up. They don't know the difference between culture and Islam, and 9/10 are just going to dump all of it together. You can't live in two countries at once. You'll just never be able to. Trying to make a mini-Pakistan in Britain is ridiculous. This might be a UK thing or something, but in the US something like that is just unfathomable to us. Islam has adopted to every place it's been in, or I should say We have adopted Islam in every place we are. To try to keep up all this cultural racism is just wrong and detrimental to our futures.

 

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« Reply #15 on: Apr 26, 2010 12:48 PM »


Salaam

I do not mean that you only marry  your cousin from Pakistan. A human being is a product of his/her culture, language and faith.

English is the medium of instruction in Muslim schools and they follow the National Curriculum. Muslim children will go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they must learn and be well versed in Arabic to recite and unmderstand the Holy Qran. On top of that they must learn and be well versed in Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. For this purpose, bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.
 
A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to becopme notoriously monolingual Brit.
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 26, 2010 04:33 PM »

Wsalam,

Here's something I'd like to ask you:

Quote
On top of that they must learn and be well versed in Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

Why the emphasis on Urdu? There are so many languages in the world and the kids already have their hands full learning English and Arabic. It's not like they're ever going to move back to Pakistan and live there? Or are they? Why not just embrace English and Arabic and instead of all these cultural programs start working on 'Muslim' cultural programs to raise a new generation of Muslims.

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« Reply #17 on: Apr 26, 2010 07:55 PM »

salam


But seriously, if you want a child to speak the mother tongue (whatever it may be), surely the onus should be on the parent to teach their children it?

It's pretty straightforward, if you wish for a child to speak their mother tongue, only speak that language in the home, they pick up the international language very quickly once at school, or even before, via TV shows (my little neice has learnt sign language in this way, we don't notice it as it's her particular quirk, uintil she does a dramatic or over exaggerated signing) and children of your friends who speak the official language of the country in which you reside.

I would not send any child of mine to a school which taught only in a language that was not the official language, how on earth would the children manage once they grew up.

This would completely and utterly alienate us from the 'natives' so to speak, I cannot think of a better way to create division within communities, including Muslims from different nationalities!!!


Is it just me or is this thread just plain bizarre?



Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 27, 2010 03:46 PM »

salaam


Quote
I cannot think of a better way to create division within communities, including Muslims from different nationalities!!!


very true. There are already many muslims from other nationalities that feel the pakis alienate them. Plus we should always integrate within a society that we are in because muslims need to know non-muslims and be with them to show them our religion and not think they are 'bad' people' while Non-Muslims need to know that Muslims are just people like the
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 27, 2010 06:00 PM »

Br Iftikhar you wrote the same paragraph thing you wrote before???

ws
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 27, 2010 07:59 PM »

Brother you want it funded it by non muslims but you don't want any nonmuslims involved?Huh?

Why would they do that for you?  Frankly does not seem right
Iftikhar
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 27, 2010 09:13 PM »

Salaam

A non-Musim teacher is not a role model for a Muslim child during his developmental period. For higher education, Muslim teacher is not a priority.
Siham
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 27, 2010 11:58 PM »

As-Salaamu` alaykum,
Here’s one rule of marriage: Bride should not be a near relative as in the case sexual passion becomes weak.
Furthermore, the Prophet saw said:  Don’t marry a near relative as in that case a child is born weak.
W`s-salâm

"Do not treat people with contempt, nor walk insolently on the earth. Allah does not love the arrogant or the self-conceited boaster. Be modest in your bearing and subdue your voice, for the most unpleasant of voices is the braying of the ass." [The Holy Qur'an, Surah Luqman - 31:18-19]
syid
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 29, 2010 06:21 PM »

As Salaamu Alaikum, sister where did you get that hadith from

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH:
IF IT'S NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS IT EVEN WORTH DOING?
Siham
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2010 05:45 AM »

As-Salaamu` alaykum, bro... It's in Ihya’

"Do not treat people with contempt, nor walk insolently on the earth. Allah does not love the arrogant or the self-conceited boaster. Be modest in your bearing and subdue your voice, for the most unpleasant of voices is the braying of the ass." [The Holy Qur'an, Surah Luqman - 31:18-19]
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