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Author Topic: Polygany Anyone?  (Read 16705 times)
moderatesufi
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« Reply #50 on: Jun 24, 2011 11:15 PM »

Jannah
Now your at it.
Why do people take the opposite meanings from my statements that I intend?

The meaning of my original statement was, I Don't care about looks! It doesn't matter to me! I believe people who care about such a shallow things as hollow!
Looks are only skin deep and temporary, I couldn't care less about them.
Will people please scroll up and read what I wrote?

Jannah why would I want her to go to a Salon if I don't care about looks?

And either you forgot or you didn't quite grasp the meaning of the word house husband, but what do you want me to do, ask her for some money so I can give it back to her to get ready for me?

I think you haven't quite grasped  niqabisis, they are not really the typical clientèle of salons.
The reason why she doesn't go to such places has nothing to do with me not giving her the money to.
The reason is, she is simply not interested in that stuff!
Not all women are!
When ladies ask her to go, she says "I don't need to, I have no problems keeping my husband"
Just because some ladies are interested in dressing up and looking beautiful, miss world nonsense, doesn't mean all ladies are in to that. The reason why some women don't do that stuff has nothing to do with their husbands not giving them the money to, some women are just not in to that.
Some women like to be complemented on their looks, that doesn't mean all women like that. She likes dressing us up, me and the kids and showing us off to her friends and family, and receiving complements on how nice we look. I personally hate that, but I do let her. I personally like diving under my car and fixing it as soon as it needs it, which kind of causes arguments if she has just made me wear some new clothes she has bought.

And the same thing applies to polygamy. Where do you get the idea that it is the man who always wants it? And it is imposed on the woman?
Some women don't mind it at all. And my wife is one of them.
We spoke about this in our pre-marriage meeting and she said she doesn't mind. It is a non-issue for her.
Actually it is something that will make both our lives much easier.
What some people find very hard to understand is the whole world doesn't think like them.
They assume that each and every family is the same. And additional wife will mean money is halved, because of some quick maths they do in their heads.
Well not always, in some cases an additional pair of hands can make all the difference.

Just cause the White Christians say polygamy is bad for women, doesn't mean you have to believe them.
They say it is bad because the man has to be shared. What they are blinded to, is the house work and child care being shared.
You look at it from the eyes of a housewife, whose whole life is her husband, and doesn't go beyond that. And then her life is halved because she has to share him with another.
The thing is, not all women fit that description.
Some women are professionals, have jobs, careers, ambitions. And would prefer their husbands to marry an additional wife to help take care of things at home then he himself staying at home.
You don't seem to comprehend that some women want this?

alakum salam

@shazad


However, if your context happens to be UK, US, Canada (somewhat) or France, there are very real consequences to life-choices of this nature. You can probably get away with having a 'misyar' marriage (which probably is the equivalent of having a mistress in these countries), but if you try and have a truly Islamic marriage, with equal share of time, money and care, it may be quite difficult financially and emotionally. Personally, I think that the misyar marriages are not fair to women; and would not encourage them.



Bro
I attacked some people earlier for limiting the shariya to a particuler time period. There by insinuating it has been abrigated.
limiting it to particular locations, is not much different.

The laws of Islam came for all times and all places.
We do not have different Qurans for different countries. One Quran is enough for all of us.

When I say polygamy, I mean polygamy. I don't mean mean Mutta by another name, and that is exactly what Misyar is.

Brother, with all due respect your statement sounds like what I hear from white supremists and Nazis who say "If you live in our country you do what we say".

You mentioned people can have more than one in Pakistan but can't in the UK.
Can you give practical examples why not?
How it will be real Nika in Pakistan, and suddenly turn in to Mutta if exactly the same thing is carried out in the UK in exactly the same way?

And brother, 3 women convert to Islam here for everyone man. If what you say is true, and additional nikkah carried out here can only are mutta, what do you propose is the solution for the additional women who are left?
Celibacy?
Marrying Kaffir?
Zina?
What?

If anything I see things the opposite as you. We need polygamy here. There are Musjids with lists of women wanting to get married, and they don't have lists of men.
What do you propose as a solution for them, if polygamy isnt a option here.

oh yes bro, one last thing.
I agree with you that not everyone with a beard or hijab is Islamic. This is because these are some aspects of Islamic worship, not all of them.
But the absence of Hijab does mean OPEN SINFULNESS.
Replace hijab with another obligation and it might become clearer.
Is everyone who eats Hallal meat good?
No! some might not pray etc.
Is everyone who eats pork bad?
Yes!
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Al-Abd
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« Reply #51 on: Jun 24, 2011 11:35 PM »

Real quick question:  Is there anyone here who is opposed to the idea of polygamy altogether??  Some of the sisters' comments kind-of gave off that notion, but of course i don't want to go around assuming something false.  So, i'm just asking to see if there is anyone here in that category.  Jazaak'Allah khair
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skhansj
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« Reply #52 on: Jun 25, 2011 12:27 AM »

@moderatesufi,
I appreciate your input to this discussion. Your posts are a lot easier to read when the attack quotient is ratcheted down. Thank you :-)

I was thinking about the one point you made:

Quote
And brother, 3 women convert to Islam here for everyone man. If what you say is true, and additional nikkah carried out here can only are mutta, what do you propose is the solution for the additional women who are left?
Celibacy?
Marrying Kaffir?
Zina?
What?


Is this really true. Are there three sisters converting for every brother? Do we have any facts backing this. I hear this quite a bit, but being one of those skeptical science types, I prefer an authoritative reference before I'll let a factoid influence me.

That does not mean that your argument if flawed of course. There are other variable that influence this scenario as well.

There is the whole problem with men getting themselves killed off, imprisoned, messed-up on drugs and chasing the wrong skirts as well. Khair insha'Allah. Allah in His wisdom has put us in these circumstances.

For the reverts, I'd assume that the real problem more likely lies with people turning down marriage proposals based on skin-color, 'caste', or ethnicity. Reverts would find it really difficult in these circumstances. May Almighty Allah make it easy for them. It's not easy, especially if their own (non-Muslim) family is causing trouble for them at that point (which happens a lot, especially initially). They truly deserve the same reward as the muhajireen, who left everything behind in Medina to live Islam in Medina.

Polygamy would probably provide a workable scenario in many of these circumstances; but it would require people who truly believe that this is an option. I am not saying that people like this do not exist in the West, but the fact is that you will be more likely to find them in countries where polygamy is already legal (bigamy laws can be a hindrance), 'social proof' exists (e.g. other people living together openly in harmony in polygamous household(s)  ). Going by pure probabilities, the chances of it working out are much lower in the West

Monogamy works for the majority of households in the world (both Muslim and non-Muslim), and is allowed by the Quraan.  About ~50 percent of marriages are successful in the US [these are primarily monogamous, hetrosexual marriages]. A chunk of these hide negative events like affairs, which are sky-rocketing due to temptations brought about by social networking sites like Facebook; but they still hold together.

The remaining ~50 percent end in divorces, and serial marriages.

Somewhere is all these stats, are the people who would benefit and be interested in polygamy.

The bigamy law in Canada is probably going to be shot-down (conflicts with the charter of freedom). However, I don't anticipate everyone rushing to get a second wife at that point :-)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/09/23/bc-polygamy-charges-blackmore-oler-bountiful.html

In the end, everyone's context is different, what is good for one person (or one couple) is not necessary going to be the 'best practice' for everyone.
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BrKhalid
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« Reply #53 on: Jun 25, 2011 12:31 AM »

Asalaamu Alaikum bro

Quote
if one is repenting from something, there is no point in hurting the person even more in order to further one's own repentance yes?... i've heard one scholar say u can just tell the person i did something in the past that i feel wronged you, can u forgive me etc and u don't have to give all the details if it will just bring more harm...

Agreed, in certain circumstances non disclosure is indeed more preferable especially if divulging the transgression will lead to more tribulation.


Quote
Also just imho here, but let's try to fix up your first marriage and make it strong before you go off marrying someone else.

As a wali, I would certainly ask questions of a brother's character if he wished to take my daughter as a second wife when he has no apparent objections in divulging details of his first wife in public.

Such behaviour is even more reprehensible given the fact that the privacy of co wives should be maintained to the highest level in a polygamous marriage.


Quote
We should make an effort to think if we are hurting someone before we express our opinions. Insha'Allah.

Couldn't agree more Br Shahzad, especially fellow Muslims.

Good to see you posting once more bro



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« Reply #54 on: Jun 25, 2011 01:13 AM »

Thank you for the kind words Br. Khalid. Appreciate the warm welcome back :-)
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #55 on: Jun 25, 2011 01:33 AM »

skhansj

I have read some that say four, and some that state a lot more. The issue isn't so much about these converts, but women in general. Because for every one born Muslim who marries one of these convert sisters, that leaves one less to marry born sisters.
There are lists in Musjids of women wanting to get married, and these lists are growing.

Yes the majority of men will have one wife, but we do need some to have more than one.


Brother I really don't think race/caste issues are big for Muslims in the UK.
We have on the most part evolved past that. Most of us, except for a few backward types.

From what I have seen, families prefer converts as in-laws especially for daughters.

1) If your child marries a convert your grand children will spend the eids with you. Not the other grandparents because they are kaffir.

2) When daughters get married they often leave the parents family and become part of the husbands family.
When she marries a convert, it is the other way.

3) You don't really have to have a lot of interaction with your son/daughters in-laws.

-- --- ---

BrKhalid you have given very good reasons why you wont give me a daughter to me as a second wife. And I am OK with it.
I personally think you would make a good example of a man who can support more than one wife well.
So go to your Musjid and ask if there are any sisters who don't mind being second wives.
Show us how its done.
Smiley

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lucid
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« Reply #56 on: Jun 25, 2011 12:07 PM »

The meaning of my original statement was, I Don't care about looks! It doesn't matter to me! I believe people who care about such a shallow things as hollow!
Looks are only skin deep and temporary, I couldn't care less about them.


somebody who doesn't care about looks would rarely if ever describe himself as "good looking."   such a person wouldn't even know if he is good-looking; he'd be oblivious to it.  and somebody who isn't fixated on looks wouldn't describe his wife as "not good looking" because to him she'd be very beautiful, stunning in fact.

the unfortunate thing is to many religious guys think exactly like you -- that men are god's gift to women and that women are here to serve men, instead of women being god's gift to man -- gifts to cherish, protect and treat in the best possible way.

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moderatesufi
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« Reply #57 on: Jun 25, 2011 07:04 PM »


somebody who doesn't care about looks would rarely if ever describe himself as "good looking."  


You are confused between noticing visual beauty and using visual beauty as a criteria.
Anyone with eyes can see visual beauty, but shallow hollow people use it as a criteria to judge some ones worth.


Men generally use one of 4 criteria to choose a spouse.
Her Beauty,
Her wealth including her fathers and her education because it is a means of gaining future wealth,
Her lineage, including race, caste, village
and
Her Deen.

The use of a criteria other than beauty doesn’t mean visual beauty is unnoticeable.

I feel you, brother Khalid and Jannah to some extent have bought in to the western notion that a woman’s worth is determined by how she looks visually.

Why do I say this?


I will explain it more clearly by replacing looks in my statement with another criteria.

My wife is better educated than me and earns more than me. By saying so, I am not denigrating myself. It is simply a statement of fact.

But what if she wasn’t?
If I was better educated than her and stated, “I am better educated than my wife” or “my wife never went to university”, will anyone see that as an insult, or back biting, or simply a statement of fact?

If this is not the case I believe it means, you judge a woman’s worth by her looks and not her mind.

My wife lineage would be considered good in the Indian sub-continent. But what if it wasn’t. If I were to state, she belongs to a low caste, she was a member of the dalit caste. Would that be an insult or a statement of fact?
 I personally don’t believe race/caste/lineage is an issue for me. That doesn’t mean I don’t know it exists.

So I see what I said as a complement to her. Because it means I am saying she has a good deen.







the unfortunate thing is to many religious guys think exactly like you -- that men are god's gift to women and that women are here to serve men, instead of women being god's gift to man -- gifts to cherish, protect and treat in the best possible way.


So does that mean the irreligious ones, the ones who judge by other then what Allah revealed are the rightly guided ones?

I have noticed this attitude in a lot of your posts. Sometimes you really do sound like a bad recording of a neo-con. I really get the feeling you look down on people you consider religious. That isn't right. you should fear Allah.

If you want to insult me, do it directly, I am mature enough not to care. But keep it specifically at me instead of spreading it on to others you deem to be too religious.
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Al-Abd
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« Reply #58 on: Jun 25, 2011 07:12 PM »

Isn't "Beauty in the eye of the beholder? " 
How do you make "statements of fact" about such a thing?

What's your definition of beauty, Mr. ModerateSufi(isn't that name redundant, lol)?

Just wondering.  bebzi
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #59 on: Jun 25, 2011 09:37 PM »

al-abd

Yes, different societies and different people have different ideas about what constitutes beauty.
What I might consider good looking, someone else might consider ugly.
I agree it is subjective.

But you should also agree, there is a certain look that maybe consider attractive by most in this time period.
That is what competitions like miss world are all about. And that is why models with a certain look are paid vast amounts of money to be seen with certain products.


When I mentioned beauty I was referring to visual attractiveness.

I know it has other metaphorical meanings, they were not what I was referring to.

Why did I mention it?

For us to say people shouldn't use beauty to choose a spouse, but instead they should use deen. We have to acknowledge it exists.
When we say this, we have to acknowledge, that there might be a woman he doesn't find attractive. In some cases he might find her visually repugnant. But he recognises she has a good deen. Is she a better choice for a spouse or someone who he does find very attractive but has a bad deen?

What I mean, is an ugly hijabi is much better than attractive looking person who doesn't even have the decency to cover herself.

-- --

About Sufism.
Sufism is NOT a replacement to Islam and its laws.
Real Sufism is to follow Islam completely and strictly.
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Al-Abd
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« Reply #60 on: Jun 25, 2011 10:09 PM »

I concur.  I wish we could all think in this way, but it's true, we have allowed ourselves to be influenced by our environment and inner-desires.  This is actually what opened my eyes to the truth of the way of the sufis.  They see things as they should be seen.  They realize that in order for us to truly understand this deen of Allah the way it should be understood, we must cleanse our hearts and struggle against our lower desires(nafs).  This can only be achieved through struggle and commitment to dhikr.  May Allah guide us all upon the sirat almustaqeem!
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #61 on: Jun 25, 2011 11:14 PM »

It isn't our inner-desires which are the problem. They are part of our fitra, the way Allah made us.
What is the problem is being controlled by them, as opposed  to controlling them.

We have a desire to eat, which we can fulfil by eating what is pure and clean, in obedience to the Quran.
The desires can easily be satisfied in a Hallal way, and satisfying the desire will bring good deeds.

But some choose to use desire as an excuse to eat what is Harram. Some eat acknowledging their sin while others twist the verses of the Quran to make Harram Hallal.
Or state the rules isn't applicable today or only applies to Muslim countries.

In the same way, humans have an inner desire to accumulate wealth. Some choose to do it in a Hallal way, and earn good deeds with the Money they earn.
But others choose to do so in a Harram way, working in banks and collecting ribba.
And they to ignore the rule, bend the verses or state the rule is not applicable today or only applies to Muslim countries.

When it comes to the desire to worship, even that can lead people to sin, a sin greater than any other sin, if we allow it to govern us with no restrictions. As can be seen when we look at the people of shirk.
The people who worship the dead, rocks trees and animals and think they will get good by such actions.

Getting back to the original topic, and I do want to, because I feel it is very important.

Humans also have sexual desire. And we should not shy away from this.
We are living things, with the natural instincts of other living things. Just as Allah created plants which flower, and produce fruits with seeds, which themselves produce new plants, Allah has placed a similar desire in us.
We have the option to fulfil it in accordance to what Allah has revealed. Or we can let it run loss and control us.
Some religions choose to ignore this fitra Allah has placed within us, and pretend it doesn't exist. Or try and suppress it, and we see the consequences when Catholic priests rape boys, or the skeletons of aborted babies and other born but buried alive are found in nunneries.

The Quran states, who we can marry. It states how many we can marry. Allah made these rules, knowing what we are and who we are.
We can not modify these rules and expect the consequences will be good.
Some men are not satisfied with one woman. That is a fact. Do not close your eyes to it. Do not tell the man he should be patient because the Kaffir don't like the fact that our religion allows him to take another wife.
And it isn't just men whose desires need fulfilling.

Because it is a fact there are More Muslim women than men. We don't kill our baby daughters like Hindus and China since the one child policy. Our men are murdered in every countless countries.
We shouldn't pretend that Muslim women do not have sexual desires. Just as not allowing priests to marry means they rape boys, not allowing excess female population to marry will mean many will commit harram.
And those that do not commit Harram will suffer, from not being able to fulfil their desires.
Polygamy is an aspect of women's rights in Islam. No polygamy, means women forced in to celibacy.
Monogamy is oppression, it is zullum on all the women left over when every man takes just one wife.
It is enforced celibacy. Nuns and priests often commit harram, when they have chosen their celibacy. Why do some insist on believing that Muslim women will keep to the Hallal, if celibacy is imposed on them by excessive monogamy?

People who attack Polygamy often state, Muslim men should control themselves and be satisfied with one wife like Kaffir men.
While its defenders state it isn't anything about sex but rather about looking after widows.

I say, it is all about sex. And we shouldn't shy away from it.
It isn't only starving women, who need husbands. Rich career women need them just as much.
Polygamy isn't welfare, it is marriage.
Lets call it what it is.
And there is nothing to be ashamed of.
Why?
Why when it results in pleasure, and fulfilment of desires?
Because these desires are being fulfilled in a Hallal way!
It is a GOOD DEED.
Marriage is a GOOD action, whether it is our first, second, third or forth.
You give all of them their rights, you good actions will continue past the wedding night.

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Al-Abd
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« Reply #62 on: Jun 26, 2011 02:19 AM »

Good stuff ModerateSufi.  Although i do agree for the most part what you said, i don't think it's fair to say It's ALL about sex.  But i know what you're trying to say.
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #63 on: Jun 26, 2011 09:14 AM »

Smiley
True. I was also meant the other aspects, that one can only get through marriage, things unrelated to financial support.
Cause if it was all about financial support, the solution would be all unmarried women becoming career women.
Like happens in the west. But the only reason such things function for them, is they don't see anything wrong in premarital sex, having children outside of wedlock, traveling without Mohram etc.


By Sex I was also referring to Companionship, Children, a mohram to go Hujj with etc. To much list.
I have no idea why the apologists for Islam focus so much on the financial aspect. Not all women are poor, some are very rich.
But the richer ones left on the scrap heap when every man picks one and only one are just as Lonely, just as childless and often have just as much problems finding a willing mohram to travel with.
Islam needs no apology. It is perfect.
Polygamy isn't Zakat, it isn't Sadaka, it isn't Lillah. In Islam Charity is Charity and Marriage is marriage. Lets not play with words. And try and disguise something as something else. Polygamy is Marriage!
What I mean is, the reason why a woman will become a second wife is exactly the same reason why someone will become a first.
I think any other view is very insulting to second wives.

Question to married women here: If I told you your husband only married you because he felt sorry for you and wanted to financially support you, would you take it as an insult?
What if I told you, you married him cause you wanted his Money?

 sis hijabisis malaybro niqabisis purplehijabisis


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jannah
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« Reply #64 on: Jun 26, 2011 09:08 PM »

wsalam,

there's so much to respond to here. i can't even read it all cuz it's giving me a headache  :'( but let me say i agree that one should look at deen as the most important thing in a spouse. but i can't deny that men are affected by looks and attractiveness. let's say he marries an "ugly hijabi" that he really is not attracted to. this will only lead to problems later on where he might be tempted to cheat, or watch pornography or marry a second wife (as u've been advocating!) so to prevent these things, ppl should at least be somewhat attracted and like certain things about the person don't u think//?

and yes beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. and sometimes the character of a person can make someone the most beautiful person in the world, sometimes ugly character or personality can make a physically perfect person ugly.

you guys are talking about tassawuf and one of the main principles of tassawuf is to close the "dunya eye" and open the baseerah "inner eye of the heart" where we see things how they really are and their true worth. men (and women) should actively strive to reach this level and then they will be truly be at a plain where "looks don't matter".


The lights of the heart and innermost beings
are only fully perceived in the unseen
metaphysical world similar to how the light of the sky
is only seen in the physical world.


Actions are lifeless forms,
but the presence of an inner reality of sincerity within them
is what endows them with life-giving Spirit.


"For surely it is not the eyes that are blind,
but blind are the hearts which are in the chests."


-Ibn Ata'illah



Quote
What I mean, is an ugly hijabi is much better than attractive looking person who doesn't even have the decency to cover herself.
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #65 on: Jun 26, 2011 10:48 PM »

so to prevent these things, ppl should at least be somewhat attracted and like certain things about the person don't u think//?


No, I don't think that because I agree with your next statement.


and sometimes the character of a person can make someone the most beautiful person in the world, sometimes ugly character or personality can make a physically perfect person ugly.

In the west, love is lust. It is based on what the man sees with his eyes, so women try and show him as much as possible.
That is what love at first sight means, lust at first sight.

True love, develops after the marriage. It develops as the couple get to know each other. As you said, it is the character of the person that makes someone love that person, by living with that person.

Now I am going to have to offend the men here, makes a change from offending to female ones?

Men do not cheat because, they find their wife ugly and they found something better. They cheat because they can. If they were married to a supermodel, and something hideous was theirs for the taking, they will.
It is women who want quality, men want quantity.
Men want victories, and when men cheat, each and every woman he cheats with, he considers a victory and a medal of honour.
That is why when men get caught by their wives, the response is always, "she meant nothing to me", it is never, "you are ugly and she is beautiful so I lost control", it is always "she throw herself at me, what could I do, don't worry, I don't even live her, she is ugly you are beautiful".
Look at the actors, businessmen and politicians, often married to the most beautiful women in the world, getting caught making out with the ugliest, most hideous prostitutes.
It isn't beauty that makes men cheat, it is availability.
So a husband is unlikely to go astray if his wife loses her looks, but might if she stops putting out to him. If he can't get it in a Hallal way from her, he might look for it in a Harram way elsewhere.

Now something else which will offend the brothers:
The reason why men want to marry beautiful women, is less to do with pleasing themselves and more to do with showing off.
So people will say, "lucky guy look at his wife". His family will say, "look how pretty your wife is". So people will like both him and his wife.
I know they will disagree with it, but they all know its true.
It is the same as marrying someone with a good lineage. It is all about showing off. My wife is a Qurayshi, she is a Sayad, a Hashmi, etc.
Just a status symbol.

If men don't marry second wives because the first is ugly, why do they do it?
They do it, if they can. If it is available.
And I see nothing wrong in it.
Because it is Hallal. It is marriage. And it is just as much of a marriage as his first. And Marriage is a Sunnah it is rewardable.
What is wrong is the Harram options stated above, the adultery where "she meant nothing to me".




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« Reply #66 on: Jun 27, 2011 02:07 AM »

We will all leave it to you --  Mr. Moderatesufi (what the heck does that mean?) to give us the lowdown on why men cheat, why polygamy is all about sex, and why "an ugly hijabi is much better than an attractive person who doesn't have the decency to cover herself."

You seem to be a sex obsessed Hater who acts like he has vast experience about these things.
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« Reply #67 on: Jun 27, 2011 06:00 AM »

I have to admit, i agree with a lot of the stuff you say ModerateSufi,but i think your blunt attitude is not taken well, lol. Anyway, i wanted to give my two cents about your comment about "sisters not having the decency to wear hijab."  I just hope to help enlighten those who have this arrogant mentality about sisters who don't wear hijab and automatically think they're bad Muslims.

Many sisters out there are just don't understand the importance of the Hijab in Islam,  and there could be a million reasons why; one of the main reasons being because their parents were not practicing Muslims themselves, hence they are brought up ignorant about their own religion.  Also, some sisters may let fear get the better of them and don't observe it because they're just too scared to. There are probably a hundred other reasons why a sister is not wearing hijab, and i think it's important that we not dismiss them as "bad muslims" based solely off that fact like many do.  

Anyway,I think what's more important than whether a sister is a hijabi or non-hijabi is WHY a sister is a hijabi or non-hijabi.  I think ModerateSufi previously stated something along the lines of:

"everyone with a beard or hijab is not islamic, but the abscense of hijab does mean open sinfulness."

Although the statement is technically true, i believe the REASON why a person is not adhering to a specific obligation in Islam,in this case hijab, is a very important factor that shouldn't be overlooked when we pass judgement on someone; whether it be for marriage, friendship, or whatever.

For example, let's say you have two Muslim brothers, Abdullah and Khalid.  Abdullah was brought up in a good islamic household and was always taught by his parents to put Allah and His messenger first.  He was sent to islamic school and got the whole package.  However, Khalid was raised in a broken household where he had parents who did not care whatsoever about the deen and actually adhered to practices that went against the teachings of Allah and his messenger.  These two brothers will most probably turn out very different from one another in regards to their practice of the deen.  Abdullah will most likely be influenced by his parents in a good way and become a "good" Muslim and khalid will barely learn Islam and fail to practice his deen properly because he was brought up in such an environment.  

I don't know this for a fact, and I fear to say anything about Allah that is not true, but i have a feeling that Allah may judge them differently.  Allah knows what we go through in life and what unique circumstances we had to suffer through as individuals, and I believe that Allah being the All-Just, will judge us accordingly.

So don't blame all the khalids out there BRO!  They can still have good hearts, and once Allah blesses them with noor in their hearts, they will realize their misgivings and probably become better Muslims than you and I!

Also,  bebzi < ---- don't drink that stuff, it's bad for you.    
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Al-Abd
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« Reply #68 on: Jun 27, 2011 06:31 AM »

^ I had to modify that last post because i assumed some things i shouldn't have. Sometimes it's hard to understand your bold statements properly, ModerateSufi.  Smiley
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Fozia
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« Reply #69 on: Jun 27, 2011 10:13 AM »

salam


Actually polygyny is not all about sex. Men (the non Muslim kind mostly but including you obviously) often times view marriage as that full stop, but actually no it isn't, it's about fulfilling marital responsibilities, promoting a family environment for the wife and children, it's about protecting otherwise vulnerable members of society ie the women and children here.

You realise you are living on your wife's charity, yes? Regardless of whether she enjoys working it is not her responsibility to maintain the roof over your heads, it is yours. It is not your wife's responsibility to maintain your additional wives, it's yours.

As far as I  can tell the Prophet (saw) did not take additional wives until it became a politically advantageous strategy to do so, each and everyone of his (saw) marriages furthered the cause of Islam, strengthened political ties (Aisha Ra, and Umm Hafsa) and turned peoples hearts towards Islam turning enemies into friends (Umm Juwairiyah's marriage).

If for you marriage is only about sex, you need to stop and think on it long and hard, what if all  of your wives become extremely ill, or unable to have sex, what will you do, divorce the lot of them? How is that islamically correct? And concentrating on sex belies your assertion that plural marriage is for the good the women, nope not really, it's because you think you will have a lot of sex.

There is a dua that I have learnt from Tirmizi;

Oh Allah, inspire me with guidance
& Protect me from the evil of myself (nafs)


One does not follow ones nafs in every desire, otherwise there is no difference between us and animals.

As for your appalling attitude towards your wife, I pray that Allah softens your heart towards your wife, and He rewards her patience and solicitude with a great reward both in this life and the hereafter....quite frankly speaking as a woman, any man who told me he was better looking than me, that he had married me out of pity for my ugly face regardless of whether his beauty exceeded that of Yusuf (AS), would hurt me deeply.

It is a universal truth that women are bought up to be self deprecating and accepting of appalling behaviour. I doubt any man would stand for such language, let alone reply with such humble self deprecation, you have in your possession a jewel worth more than the most priceless of diamonds, if you neglect to care for her as you should another more deserving may be sent by Allah.



Wassalaam
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
moderatesufi
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« Reply #70 on: Jun 27, 2011 06:16 PM »

Lucid


We will all leave it to you --  Mr. Moderatesufi (what the heck does that mean?) to give us the lowdown on why men cheat, why polygamy is all about sex, and why "an ugly hijabi is much better than an attractive person who doesn't have the decency to cover herself."

You seem to be a sex obsessed Hater who acts like he has vast experience about these things.

Thank you
Smiley

Yes I am a hater. We all are. We all hate somethings, and love other things while being indifferent of most things.

I hate Kufr, and love Islam. I have read a few of your posts, on other threads. Can the same be said about you?

Al Wala' Wal Bara'
Learn it
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Al-Abd

I agree that it isn't a good idea to look down on others.
We all sin, and only the Prophet pbh was Mahsum.
And even he repented.


The issue with Hijab, sisters and the lack of it, is some see Hijab differently to all other obligations.
When you see someone doing a Harram or eatting you can tell them, and no one sees a problem with that. But with Hijab it is treated differently, Such people are seen as an ethnic group. Or a madhab. Hijabis shouldn't judge non-hijabis. Kind of sounds like whites shouldn't judge blacks?
You have Hanafis, Shafis, Malakis, hanbalis and Hijabis?
Why the name?
Why the definition?.
why the designation?
Do we do this with any other obligation?
For example, do we say Namazis shouldnt judge non-Namazis?
Do we give names to them?
Hajis and Non-Hajis?
Swamis and Non-swamis?
Its a joke.
Islam has obligations, we should follow them instead of saying some regulations are restricted to some people.
For example, the obligation of Hijab being restricted to Hijabis.

Fozia
I am writing my reply to you.
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moderatesufi
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« Reply #71 on: Jun 27, 2011 07:22 PM »

Fozia
Actually polygyny is not all about sex. Men (the non Muslim kind mostly but including you obviously) often times view marriage as that full stop,


Wrong!
Why?
It is Muslims who need marriage for sex. For non-Muslims it isnt a requirement.
So the opposite is true!
Other things such as security and financial support can be obtained from other sorces. Sex and the children that come from it is the only thing that can only be obtained from marriage and no other Hallal sorces.

A lot of women already have financial security. From their fathers, and their own earnings.
So why do they marry?
Companianship, sex and children!


You realise you are living on your wife's charity

Wrong again. When did I say, she pays the bills?
I said I am a house husband, she earns more than me, she is better educated than me, she works, I stay at home.
I did not say she supports me financially at any time, I did not say her wage goes towards household bills at any time.
You came to the conclusion on your own. read all my posts again.
Her money is hers, mine is negotiable.
How do I manage to do that with so little money and where do I get my money from?
Well that is my business not yours!

People coming to conclusions like that, is the very reason why a lot of Muslim men refuse to let their wives go out to work.
Even though I am not a modernist Muslim in any sense of the word. I have supported my wife going out to work, even though it has meant our household income has gone down.
But you are doing a good job in convincing me that I was wrong.
Muslim women who are brainwashed by western feminism are so confused.
When men work, and leave them at home to look after the kids. They cry and demand the same rights to work as Kaffir woman.
They say they are bored at home, and Muslim men are sexist.
But when Muslim men allow their wives to work, they are first to judge.
When Muslim men leave their jobs for the kids to support their wives, these men are judged more, and accused of being beggars to their wives.
Now, ask me, why do so many Muslim men, refuse to let their wives work?
If any brothers are contemplating allowing their wives to work, think again.
Brothers, it isn't worth it!

I do manage to support one wife, which is difficult because I allow her to work meaning I have to stay home.
It is easy to support a family on a very small income.
If I take a second, I will still easily be able to manage, but it will mean I will have to work fulltime.
Just as I am easily able to support a single family one a very small income, We can all support two families with a modest fulltime income.
So brothers, you can do it!
Don't think polygamy is only for the rich.
£10 000 is enough to support one family. £25 000 which is a very low wage is more than enough to support two! And I am sure we can all do much better than £25 000.
Brothers get your calculators out and do the maths because you dismiss polygamy as a passtime of the rich!
But me working fulltime will mean she can't.
I'm ok with that. At least people wont accuse me of getting charity from my wife anymore?
If she wants to work, she will have to make an arrangment with the second wife, or find a third who is ok with helping with the kids.
Three is cool too, I'll just have to do better than £25K or make it stretch?

The Prophet Pbh's marriages were political stratagies?

Again you are wrong on what you have accused the Prophet PBH of doing. This comes from reading books written by apologists embarrassed with the laws of polygamy who try to disguise it for something it is not.
What you state is an insult to the Prophet pbh and an insult to the sahaba.
Please refrain from saying something so idiotic again.
The Marriage to Umm ul mumineen Ayesha ra was divinely ordered. It was not a political ploy. It was not a strategy. Abu Bakr ra accepted the Prophet pbh as soon as he heard he received revelation with out the slightest hesitation. He is the one that used his body to protect the Prophet pbh from a venomous animal. To say the marriage was needed to cement ties with him, is an extreme insult. And the same goes for Umar ra. These are the Sahaba, people who slaughtered their own family members for the love of Allah and his Prophet pbh. Abu Bakr fought his own son, and tried to kill him in battle for Islam, do you think such a man needs the Prophet pbh to marry his daughter to love him more, to serve him more, to obey him more?

what if all  of your wives become extremely ill, or unable to have sex, what will you do, divorce the lot of them?
What I do is my business.
What I wouldn't do is commit Zina.
That is what kaffir men and sinful muslim men do, isntead of marrying again.
I am confused on why you think Illness brings an end to sex?
Even if that was the case, four would reduce the risk of needing to divorce to marry again wouldn't it?
It would be very rare for all four to be so ill all at once?
So that can be another reason why polygamy benefits women. If she is ever ill her husband doesn't need to divorce her to marry someone else. Instead he can just satisfy himself with another wife.






"As for your appalling attitude towards your wife,"

I really think I am a very nice husband. And so do others. I think it is just feminists who have a problem?


" any man who told me he was better looking than me,"

She said that to me that I am better looking then her. Some women would have a problem with marrying a husband who is better looking. She didn't. Maybe that was a negative for me?
Just as some men have a problem with marrying a lady better educated then them. That is why a lot of women with excessive education can never find a husband. Because they find that the pool of males who are better educated is very small and in very high demand.

Men sort of think excessive education does this to women:
Harry Enfield - Women know your limits



 "that he had married me out of pity for my ugly face regardless of whether his beauty exceeded that of Yusuf (AS), would hurt me deeply."

I have never said that. Or thought it. Or written something like that here.
I told you, I married due to her deen, not pity.
I actually accused others of trying to limit polygamy to pity marriages. And said if someone went to a widow, and said I will marryed you because I pity you, she will be hurt.

Men marry virgins because men want sex/children/companianship, they marry widows and dvorcees for the same reason. It is the same whether it is the mans 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage. The reason is always what the man wants, and not pity. Do you think it will be any less insulting if a man said "I marry you because i pity your poverty" to a widow than if he said "I marry you because i pity your ugly face" to a virgin?

I didn't say or insinuate that in anyway. Infact what I said had the opposite meaning.
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Fozia
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« Reply #72 on: Jun 27, 2011 11:30 PM »

salam


So Aisha (ra) marriage was divinely ordained, why is it not a direction from Allah to cement ties with a man who had spent his entire worldly wealth in the path of Islam, what is wrong with politically motivated marriages, If they strengthen the cause of Islam, if they turn hearts towards Allah, if they turn friendship to family ties, if each wife is treated with love and repsect and taken care of?

Muslim men are told if they cannot afford to marry they should fast. Marriage is not all about sex, for you it is obviously, for everyone no it's not the only reason for marriage.

If marriage really were all about having lots of sex, then mutah marriages would never have been forbidden.

Why would illness effect a womans ability to have sex, seriously?

Polygyny is allowed, a man who chooses not to practice this is not at all going against Islam, it is there as a right, along with the punishment for abusing the wives rights clearly stated alongside it.

You should marry if you can afford it, you should go out to work if you are physically able.

I don't know of a single woman who wanted to continue with her career when she had children, most women want to go down a gear in their career and concentrate on bringing up their children which Islam allows, there's nothing wrong with going out to work, equally there's absolutely nothing wrong with staying home and being with the children if that's what a woman wishes to do after having children. Most mothers I know have happily taken time out for at least the first three years of their childrens lives to stay home or work part time.

Stop writing on the internet that your wife is unattractive, it reflects badly on you.  Ime most men over estimate their looks and most wives tend not to shatter their illusion as women recognise that such sentiments will not be conducive to a happy marriage.


What's your point with the video?








Wassalaam

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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
akhan
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« Reply #73 on: Jun 28, 2011 02:03 AM »

You can marry 2,3,4 ONLY if you can do justice between them, if you have the slightest fear that you can't, then you should marry only ONE - moderatesufi, can you add this disclaimer to your claim because you're encouraging polygyny like it's a cakewalk and it sure as hell isn't! In fact nobody can be absolutely just with even one wife forget about four. Now I am not being apologetic but realistic rather because it is the Quran that has that condition and I am assuming you choose to skip that.

PS-I apologize if this was already mentioned by somebody coz I didn't have the patience to read through all those utterly long posts.
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JustOne
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« Reply #74 on: Jun 28, 2011 08:32 AM »

Ur not doing justice to your one and only wife at the moment by dismissing her looks along with her ethnicity. Brother - how in the world will you handle 2, or 3, or 4. It's all about sex according to you, and yet you a) find her unattractive, b) plan on marrying a blue-eyed blonde in the next go.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying your so-called logic is flawed, and that you need to get a job - if not to support yourself and her and any kids you may have, but to give your mind something productive to do.

If you really want to emulate the sahaba and help the poor wayfaring blue eyed muslimahs out there, you might want to start off with being less of a - well I really can't describe you without a mild expletive, so I'll just refrain.
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