// Anonymous ? for the bros
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« on: Dec 27, 2007 04:07 AM »

Do you really decide on marrying someone within the first 3 minutes of meeting her? playah

It seems like brothers put you into certain categories when first meeting "marriageable" "non-marriable" and this category can NEVER be changed.

Is this true?
The Lion

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« Reply #1 on: Jan 02, 2008 09:42 AM »

Do you really decide on marrying someone within the first 3 minutes of meeting her?


I may not be married, but I believe anyone would advise against it. Marriage is something that lasts a life-time, and that if you made a decision based on 3 minutes of your life, than it was not wise.

As for giving categories to others such as 'marriageable' and so on, it does not exist; otherwise, if it had, you would have known who to pick whilst meeting the person.

Any who, my best advice that I can give is if you 'like' the person at first sight and so on, go a little further with upstanding maturity and talk about a long-lasting relationship that you have been thinking about a.k.a. marriage.

If the brother seems to gaze around and pulls out after the conversation, maybe he wasn't interested; if this is not the case - enjoy the evening with him and get to know each other.

Hope I helped.

« Reply #2 on: Jan 02, 2008 05:31 PM »

That makes sense. Perhaps I'm meeting the wrong Kind of guys!
« Reply #3 on: Jan 02, 2008 05:34 PM »

the lion and others you can post anonymously here! just write something and post it.

if you DO want your username shown you can check at the bottom where it says:Post this message with your username (NOT ANONYMOUS)

otherwise everything you write comes up as anonymous!!

« Reply #4 on: Jan 06, 2008 10:19 PM »

I think I would much rather brothers quietly and respectfully categorize, than openly and rudely insult or say one thing and then later on change their mind.  I've had some of the most bizzare experiences with these meetings; some have left me puzzled, others have left me crying for days, some who reject me and find another only to try to reconnect with me when the realization that they rejected too quickly kicks in and still others who ultimately seemed to vanish from the face of the earth (I never realized I was intimidating or something).  The ones that seem to at least stick it out ultimately turn out to be the unmarriable variety.  I'm really trying hard not to believe that all the good ones are married and off the market such that all that remains are the ones that don't have a clue what marriage is really all about and therefore I will have to bask in my misery and ignore the most basic of human needs for the remainder of my life.  Who needs that kind of torture and angst?  Women aren't designed for it.
« Reply #5 on: Jan 07, 2008 12:05 AM »

  One of the things that I find most troubling in these "instant" decisions is that it is often based on appearance; not manner of dress but rather skin color as these brothers are color struck and only light bright/white will do no matter their own coloring.  It is as if there is something fundamentally wrong with the fact that Allah made us in a rainbow of colors and didn't set one above the other.  So I often question how can such attitudes come from our fellow Muslims.  This is generally something no one wants to talk about but it is an undeniable fact that it happens.  I've been summarily dismissed for this reason alone on many occassions.

Another problem I've found is that some judge based on whether one was raised with a western outlook or not. The individual has no control over where their parents chose to raise them; they have control solely over how they conduct themselves.  Some cast judgement over whether the sister works or not.  Well if she must support herself then how can that be a problem?  I've been called "too Western" and again dismissed.

Age also seems to be a factor as if every sister who has attained a certain age is incapable of having children failing to realize that some still are fully functioning.  Yet brothers 55+  are still out there and consider themselves marriageable.

And whatever you do, don't be a sister that is active in the local ummah.  Somehow that's a bad thing so I generally have to omit that I am. 

It also seems that some would much rather marry a non-Muslim woman failing to realize that to do that there are certain criteria but sadly that often isn't the case.  It is also frightening when a brother doesn't take the time to even dress for the meeting in an Islamic manner but a sister has to do so;  this almost seems to be a precursor to how married life would be.  Muslim women aren't afforded the luxury of looking outside Islam so we are forced into a position of being beholden to the brothers.

It is quite confusing that if it is a sister's choice on whom to marry why is it that all the cards and all the chips seem to be in the brother's court?  I won't deny that the subject of marriage is a touchy and painful one for me.  A topic that brings forth tears and feelings of unworthiness on my part as if there is something so wrong with me that I must be denied this happiness and instead settle for whatever comes my way no matter how offensive or oppressive or just accept that I should be alone and battle the temptation of natural inclinations.  My friends wonder why I don't often hang out with them.  Well some are married others (non-Muslim) are dating so I'd always be the extra wheel.  Even if it's just ladies only I know that I'll be going home to an empty bed and they won't.

« Reply #6 on: Feb 25, 2008 09:48 AM »

Assallamu alley kum,
i was reading through the messages,and i found it really upseting that someone should do that ,i've been married for 22 years and believe me its better to wait for the right person than to get married to anyone just for the sake of getting married and sharing your life with someone,its easy to say that you will live with anyone no matter  how offensive or oppressive..but when it happens then you will know that its not easy,trust me im speaking from experiance.

« Reply #7 on: Feb 25, 2008 10:54 AM »

I don't think anyone is for marrying 'just anyone' these days. That's why there are so many unmarried brothers and sisters out there!
« Reply #8 on: Sep 24, 2008 04:07 PM »

Is that a good thing?

Is it better to wait (sometimes for ever) for the perfect match or just marry someone who does have half the qualities that you are looking for ?

Is there anything as perfect husband/wife ?
« Reply #9 on: Sep 24, 2008 09:36 PM »

Better just to get married. No one's perfect. And being single in the Muslim community is very difficult as it is family oriented.
« Reply #10 on: Sep 24, 2008 10:20 PM »

Being single period isn't a good thing.  For non-Muslims it may be a case of a series of "empty" relationships but the individuals aren't alone.  For us Muslims we can't or shouldn't opt for the "empty" relationships but it seems that when the options are limited or rather restricted one is forced into the "empty" lifestyle instead. 
« Reply #11 on: Sep 25, 2008 02:51 AM »

I think its not necessary to find or choose the exact match or even what  would your future wife or husband to be like because you may be loving what you are whilst  others see it in a different way .this means if you choose your exact match you would only double yourself  be it good or bad
 For instance There are  lots of positive characteristics most girls gain after marriage  .These are things they don’t actually give a big care as just girls in their parent's house  such as cooking ,cleaning etc.
So if a man takes these experiences as  basic and major factor to set his condition on then he sees she is not qualified which is not a real black spot on any girl
The same is true to on the vice versa as well
The main points we should focus and test is that there is not negative conduct and habits
Not why there is no full perfection

« Reply #12 on: Sep 27, 2008 10:14 AM »

Sad to say things are definitely changing, particularly in the west. Part of the issue is that the systems for arranging marriages are limited in the west. People are from all types of backgrounds, as well as very spread out. Plus you also have “new” Muslims who really do not have the family system in place to assist them. Not all Imans are prepared or have the ability to screen and investigate people. And nowadays you have people who won’t help for fear of being “blamed” for things if they do not work out.

So this leaves people to have to do al of the “investigating” themselves. Particularly for women, it makes us vulnerable, as we tend to be more sensitive. It’s hard to take “rejection” as you’ve put yourself out there. 

I would imagine that the two main reasons for the “quick” rejection are ethnicity as well as looks and actually mean if a person is more “large.” 

Un fortunately with folks not having family to “investigate” meaning the other criteria match-same level of deen, shared values etc. it is a lot of excess work  Its just another difference to living in the west than in a Muslim society. Something that people have to adapt and find good Islamic solutions for

« Reply #13 on: Sep 27, 2008 11:24 AM »

"all the good ones are married and off"

We’re Muslim, so being married doesn’t necessarily mean being off the market.

Yes I actually think most interviews are decided in the first seconds. Most men and most women are like that.
I’ve got an ugly friend who had loads of interviews rejected the uglys straight away, and when asked he would say, “She looks like me”.
He did find her beautiful one, but the marriage broke when he couldn’t earn as much as her family thought he could.
This is because men and women have different criterions. Men like looks, women like cars and money, except for a few. I’m better looking than my wife and she has more money and education than me.
But still I think ours as decided on the first few seconds too. My bases was she wore Hijab and hers was I wouldn’t stop her from wearing Niqab. Everything else was issues where compromise was possible.

I can’t help bit think, why restrict yourself to your nation?
Have you thought about marrying in the Muslim world? There are about 1.5 billion Muslims out there, half are men?

Men do find women who work and get paid loads more than they do intimidating. They feel it will affect their masculinity. And to be honest it was my first thought and I was about to reject on this issue. But I think my wife was smart enough to know this and realistic enough to answer this before I asked about it. She stated that her work wouldn’t affect her house work, and she would leave whatever job she did if it got in the way.

Well there are two things women can do, can wait all there life for a Mister right. Or can settle for mister acceptable. But that means making compromises that lesbian feminists have told women they should never do, such as:
Leaving work if it is a problem;
Emigrating if it is a condition;
If the husband feels that you might not be able to have kids any more, state that you will find him a new younger wife if you can’t.
« Reply #14 on: Sep 27, 2008 09:19 PM »

Hmm interesting points raised I suppose.  But if as you say "men go for looks" then why would an unattractive man think he could ever marry a pretty woman and for that matter why would a poor man think he could marry any woman?  Furthermore who decides what is pretty and what is not?  Beauty is supposed to be in the eye of the beholder and not determined by some self-proclaimed expert or authoriity.

I'm not sure how a woman's intelligence or earning level could impact a man's masculinity yet a man's intelligence and earning level is not supposed to negatively impact a woman's self-esteem (meaning rendering her in a position where she feels trapped and forced to walk eggshells lest this man leave her).

Now I don't agree with the point of settling for Mr. Acceptable means making the compromises outlined.  Why should a woman leave her job if it becomes problematic for her husband yet a man not leave his job if it is problematic for his wife?  Why should a woman be forced to leave her home and family behind because a husband sets it as a condition when we are not supposed to isolate ourselves from family?  And why on earth would a woman willingly help her husband find a younger woman to marry if the wife becomes unable to bear additional (or any) children when a man would not divorce his wife and help her find another husband if he is unable to sire children.  Saying that all feminists are lesbians (by the reference to lesbian feminists) because they believe in equality is the same as saying that all "traditional" thinking men are male chauvanists and womanizers.

You ask why not consider people from the broader Muslim world to marry?  First of all a woman should not have to import a husband and sponsor him which would mean she would have to have sufficient money to do so and be employed; would that not also impact a man's masculinity?  And men far more often seek to import wives usually from "back home" rather than marry from among the women that reside where he currently is so thereby instantly decreasing the eligible pool for the women of the local community. 
« Reply #15 on: Sep 27, 2008 10:39 PM »

“unattractive man think he could ever marry a pretty woman”

I answered it in the post, most women don’t care about looks they care about cars and money.
Looks can get a man a woman’s attention but it won’t get him an acceptance. For instance, loads of women proposed to me the first time they saw me while I was minding my own business walking down the street. But once we had a meeting or they sent a friend or their sheikh to find out more about me they changed their minds. It was always when they asked about my Job or education.

“and for that matter why would a poor man think he could marry any woman?“
Yes poverty is for a man what ugliness is for a woman. But poor men can get married just as ugly women can get married. It doesn’t really affect whether they can get married, but affects who they can get married too.
What I mean is few women are less attractive than their husbands and few men are poorer than their wives.

“Furthermore who decides what is pretty and what is not?”
The person who is looking, meaning
“Beauty is supposed to be in the eye of the beholder and not determined by some self-proclaimed expert or authority”
What do you think the beholder likes? Do you think you are what your beholder wants? If not instead of praying that he changes his mind, you have to find someone who doesn’t mind or get him to make a compromise about looks.

“I'm not sure how a woman's intelligence or earning level could impact a man's masculinity yet a man's intelligence and earning level is not supposed to negatively impact a woman's self-esteem”
It does affect her self esteem but in a different way to what you think.
When a man doesn’t earn enough, it makes the women feel bad. If he earns a lot but the woman earns more, she still feels bad. I mentioned what happened to my friend.
And my wife always tells me she doesn’t know what to say when people ask about what I do, because she feels embarrassed. She is always on at me about getting more education and better Jobs, not because we need the money, because mashallah we don’t, but because she feels it is an issue of honour that the mans needs to have a higher status than the woman.

“Why should a woman leave her job if it becomes problematic for her husband yet a man not leave his job if it is problematic for his wife?”
If she wants to get married she would. If she would prefer to remain single she wont.

“Why should a woman be forced to leave her home and family behind because a husband sets it as a condition when we are not supposed to isolate ourselves from family?”
But than the husband would have to leave his, and would have to isolate himself from his family.
Unless you marry someone from your own area, which you mentioned is not happening.
It is more common for the woman to go to live with the man than the man going to live with the woman. This is also a masculinity issue.

“And why on earth would a woman willingly help her husband find a younger woman to marry if the wife becomes unable to bear additional (or any) children when a man would not divorce his wife and help her find another husband if he is unable to sire children.”

If the issue is age and fear she can’t conceive, than isn’t that what she would need to do if she doesn't want to remain single for the rest of her life ?

“Saying that all feminists are lesbians (by the reference to lesbian feminists) because they believe in equality is the same as saying that all "traditional" thinking men are male chauvanists and womanizers.”

I meant it the other way around. All lesbians are feminist. And it is usually these men haters who program non-men-haters to scare men away with unrealistic demands.
That is because those men haters like women, the fewer women with men, the more that are left for them.

“You ask why not consider people from the broader Muslim world to marry? “
I meant you go to him in the broader Muslim world. If he comes to you how do you know his marrying you and not your passport?
Anyway, have you trade importing a man from back home?
« Reply #16 on: Sep 28, 2008 02:24 PM »

Well I suppose it could be said that "most women don't care about looks" but at the same time women do care about looks beause none wants to be seen with a slob nor someone that is so unattractive that any resultant children would suffer.  Who knows if that is what men wonder about; afterall a Muslim man should not be attempting to find a wife that he could then showcase to other men.

If as you say women look primarily for money and believe that a man should be at a higher status than a woman then it is because women have been conditioned to believe such yet such was not the case with Khadijah (ra) because she was the one with money and if I'm correct rejected proposals from men who had money.  Your wife shouldn't feel embarassed or anything; the family is taken care of and so instead of responding to the "what does your husband do" with the specifics a better response might be to simply say where you work or focus on one aspect of your job and speak about it in those terms.  Quite frankly sometimes a title is nothing more than a label and doesn't say anything about what one actually does or knows.

The marriage pool should not be limited for some people based on superficial criteria; not if Islam promotes equality and I shudder to think that it doesn't.  Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but when the beholder seeks only after "fair skin" let's say then an attractive darker skinned person would instantly be rejected without being given a fair chance.  If the criteria is "only the ultra thin" then the "womanly curves" or "stocky men" would be rejected.  If the criteria is only "born in a certain country" then everyone else is overlooked.

Come on now do you really think that lesbian women try to convince other women to reject men so they have a chance?  If so could not the same be said about gay men wanting to convince other men to reject women so they have a chance?  If it's a "hate" thing then it must have derived from somewhere; perhaps from the outright cruelty that is displayed by members of the opposite sex as a result of lack of "looks" or lack of "education status and money".  (I find the whole thing  - alternative lifestyle - disturbing by the way).

I still question the validity of a woman leaving her job; getting married shouldn't be based on that.  If a man works in an industry where he is among mostly women and his boss is a woman that would be problematic for his wife so should he not out of love and respect for her in turn leave that job?  Same if he has a job that keeps him away from home for extended periods of time.

Men more often than not do tend to leave their families and friends for employment or education and don't usually return home so for a man it has already been done but to then yank a woman away from hers seems wrong.  You are suggesting that a woman travel alone to a strange land in search of a husband?

I noticed that the comment about a man who is unable to sire children divorcing his wife and helping her find a new husband that can father children was left untouched.  Just as a man would have the desire for children so too does a woman have the same desire.

I guess it's just a mess that has no solution other than what we are taught from the Quran and sunnah and as "modern folks" I can only assume that this sound option is ignorned in favor of a "better way".
« Reply #17 on: Sep 28, 2008 03:21 PM »

I think the key issue is you are viewing things as you would like them to be instead of how they really are.
« Reply #18 on: Oct 07, 2008 09:10 AM »

If the fish aren’t biting it may be time to change your bait.

Have you ever thought of revising what you are offering as your part of the marriage?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 07, 2008 12:43 PM »

If it were a simple matter of changing what one is offering then it would be possible.  However the issue isn't that simple.  For example if a person is told on the one hand they are "too independent" and no man wants a self-sufficient woman but is then told by others that one is "too needy" and no man wants a woman who he has to completely take care of then it's a puzzle (and I suspect a lie).  Or if a woman is told that she is "too smart" and no man wants a smart woman but then also called "not smart enough" and no man wants a dumb woman then it's a puzzle (or a lie).  One cannot do much to alter their anatomy as they are as Allah designed them.  One can do nothing about their skin color because they are definitely as Allah designed them.  So the issue comes down to either men not knowing what they want or wanting what does not exactly exist.  Similarily the same could be said about women not knowing what they want; but this is less so since women aren't generally given the choices.

We know what should be the primarily considerations but who adheres to that much.

So to suggest that one (particularly a woman) needs to re-evaluate what they are bringing to a marriage is a crock.

Yeah the pond is lacking the positive prospects and that is the bigger cause of the problem.  Might seriously have to build one from scratch.

« Reply #20 on: Oct 07, 2008 01:19 PM »


You know I married a guy who was not good looking, because I believe a good heart generally shines thro and so too the opposite.

He was also poor, and I paid for his education, I helped him study and backed him up when he felt down, I reassured him and supported him when he wanted to give up and start earning money as a cleaner etc

I also married outside of my country/comfort zone whatever.

I am more educated than him, I have a degree, however his qualifications are more vocational, so could be considered comparable to mine, but at point of marriage I was more educated than him.

I come from a more wealthy family. His family wanted to pay me something like one hundred rupees as Mahr! And proceeded to try and argue the Mahr down, even tho it was already set very low to begin with.

I don't know whether I'm ugly or not. I've been called all sorts throughout my life, I'm pretty much the opposite in looks to the ex. He used to call me ugly by the way, I was too skinny, too short(try and rectify that one), altho he and his family had all seen me before proposing marriage, I hadn't been wearing shoes at the time, so they had a good idea how tall/short I was I'm 5'3" so not exactly a midget!
In retaliation I never once called him names, altho he was completely blind in one eye, he objected to the fact that I wore glasses, altho again he knew this, so I wore contact lenses (paid for by me) as much as possible to please him!

Result: When he was outside his family's censor, when he had the education, when he got the required level of job experience and when he had the passport colour he wanted he screwed around.....

I'm now left with children and an ex, who wants me to take my children out of an Islamic school because its expensive (the full years fees are less than half of his monthly salary after tax), I have huge debt in my name which he took out, meanwhile he drives round in an air conditioned car (paid for by me), with his girlfriend living in a huge house (paid for by re-mortgaging the home I live in without my knowledge or consent). Worse he wants to take my children from me and send them 'back home' where he will pay a pittance for their maintenance and live it up here going out with all these women, yes I am sure it is completely platonic, the women who he dines, and drives around and entertains and lives with are sisters to him etc etc etc.

My point, do I have one, and yes I had initially posted this rant on the wrong thread.
My point, a man who dismisses a woman for something so trivial of complexion is not worth thinking about. I would strongly advise holding out till a guy who ticks most (if not all) boxes comes along, at least someone who ticks the big boxes.
When a woman is stuck in a bad marriage, she is advised to be patient, pray, change herself, repent for her sins, think of the children etc etc etc. women are generally stuck unless they're very lucky indeed.

Having been there, done that and got the non molestation order against the person who was meant to be the one who protected me. I'd say be grateful of every rejection, who wants to end up with a man who wants a wife with a flawless complexion for example, how long does a pale flawless complexion last anyway, as the poem goes, youth is but an hour.....

« Reply #21 on: Oct 07, 2008 06:32 PM »

It looks like you are using the wrong bait for the wrong fish?

Some men like smart, others like dumb. Most like Smart, but not as smart as themselves.
They like tall, but not as tall as themselves.
Rich, but not as rich as them selves.
But there are always exceptions.
But the problem with exceptions is you might not like them, they may be too dumb for you, too short for you, too old/young, to ugly or too good looking.
Yes some women don't like men better looking than themselves, makes them look ugly.
« Reply #22 on: Oct 07, 2008 06:36 PM »

Or too perfect!
I have got that answer loads of times when trying to find a male for someone.
The problem with that is the question arises, “What would he see in me”, once he realises he is better than me, or he can get someone better he would dump me and go get it”.

Well some women would prefer to live their lives single then take the risk.
Well that’s their choice. But I can’t see the problem, as long as you a smart enough not to give him all your money. Because even if the worst comes to the worse, aren’t a few good years better than no good years?
A little bit of company better than no company.
Being married for a short while, than never being married?
« Reply #23 on: Oct 07, 2008 06:38 PM »

"Might seriously have to build one from scratch."

I hope that doesn't mean getting togeather with a kaffir in the hope of converting him?
« Reply #24 on: Oct 07, 2008 08:09 PM »

all these anons are extremely confusing. I really wish you could leave the option if someone wants to put their name. It would still be mostly anon but less confusing

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