// The uprising spreads to India, in a different way
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akhan
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« on: Aug 18, 2011 01:32 AM »


This guy Anna Hazare has been protesting to eradicate corruption in India. He wants the parliament to pass a silly bill called the Jan Lokpal which apparently will act as an ombudsman. I think it is rubbish anyway. Corruption in India will never ever fade away.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/08/201181717928682267.html


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« Reply #1 on: Aug 18, 2011 01:47 AM »

Hyderabad playing it's part in a staged act Sad I feel sorry for the people who're blindly supporting the self styled Gandhian (which he isn't btw)

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/cities/hyderabad/city-lends-voice-anna-stir-633
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 18, 2011 04:49 AM »

I've just watched your link. Not sure what your problem is with this guy. All he is doing is fasting during Ramadhan like the Muslims do. Maybe he would get some Hidiyat from it and become Muslim.
And while he is fasting, he isn't eating or drinking any Harram stuff.
Yes, corruption wont go away, but at least this guy is trying to get rid of it?
Anyway, hopefully India will fragment and disintegrate, in the way of the Soviet Union. The country is too big to be ruled affectively as one country, and the people are too different to live together. It needs to be a bunch of smaller countries.
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 18, 2011 05:21 AM »

Salam
I pray it wont turn into such unfruitful protracted protests. What I believe concerning corruption is, you can't get rid of it by force. Sensitize people, let them purify their souls and then progress will come.

Corruption is our main problem in Nigeria too. The problem is one wont know who to fight. The pendamic is everywhere: In schools; in courts;...... It is in the anti corruption agencies my friend. So it cant be fought such way- bt jst my view!

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 18, 2011 05:54 AM »

wsalam,

I don't see what's so wrong with him either?? To start change you have to start with bringing attention to the problem. Why do prisoner's have hunger strikes? To show dissent and bring attention to problems. How does change take place in the world? The Arab spring has shown us it can start from a single person and catch on fire from there. The interesting thing is that the Indian gov't arrested him!! and for what exactly/??
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 18, 2011 09:07 AM »

Found this (very positive) article on the subject written by another famous Indian:

Anna Hazare's fight for change has inspired millions of Indians

The arrest of the anti-corruption campaigner has brought people from all walks of life together to demand an end to the old ways

      Chetan Bhagat
    guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 17 August 2011 20.04 BST
 
At the time I write this, millions of my countrymen are on the streets, fighting for a strong anti-corruption law. Many more are glued to their TV sets, watching developments as the initially defiant Indian government looks on track to eat humble pie.

This fight is led by Anna Hazare, a 74-year-old activist, who is on hunger strike until parliament considers the bill that would establish a Lokpal – ombudsman – with the power to investigate and punish corrupt politicians and civil servants.

Hazare had fasted in April and forced the government to agree to include his team in drafting the bill. His non-violent yet aggressive, Gandhi-like method of protest, together with his anti-corruption cause, struck a chord with Indians. Thousands of non-government organisations fight for social causes every day in India, but none has ever achieved this kind of support. From rickshaw drivers to software engineers, from businessmen to spiritual leaders, people from all walks of life back Anna. So do I.

This level of support is unusual here. The usual Indian response is phrases all of India's young are used to hearing from the older generation: "Nothing will ever change in this country", "nobody can touch the powerful", and "the common man is meant to suffer".

Cynics thrive in India, and they have ample evidence to support their attitude. After all, things have not changed much over the past five decades – governance is as incompetent and corrupt as ever, and the guilty are almost never punished.

Archaic laws, designed for autocratic, colonial rulers with no accountability (yes, blame the British for everything) have been retained and abused to the hilt by the current politicians. Power talks; truth and justice are often crushed. We remain a poor country, despite having world-class talent and ample natural resources.

And yet, something is different about India's class of 2011. Despite all the Uncle Cynics, people from all walks of life came forward to fight for the bill. From their parents' generation that said "nothing will ever change", they came forward to say: "I am the change."

I had spotted this desire and aggression in the young during my travels as a speaker in 50 Indian cities over the past two years. I could sense a disconnection between the aspirations of the young and the leaders. I never imagined a 74-year-old could tap into it so well.

Yet, even though the government agreed to engage with Anna in April, it backtracked and insulted, ignored and snubbed his team during the drafting of the new legislation.

The government made a lame, impotent bill of its own which covered only 0.5% of the government's officers, and disincentivised whistleblowers. The government hoped that with half of India illiterate, and most of the other half ignorant, nobody would know the difference.

Disillusioned, Anna threatened to start another fast on 16 August. The government played shady games, like not giving him a venue or not letting him set up a tent in the rainy weather. Support grew as people witnessed the government's hubris on television.

In a serious lapse of judgment, the government arrested Anna from his home on the morning of 16 August. News spread, and the nation exploded on to the streets. By evening, the government wanted to release him. In a masterstroke, Anna refused to come out of jail, and continued his fast there. The country is in a frenzy, and the government is in a fix.

The ruling class, most from three generations ago, are bewildered. They don't understand movements going viral, with social networks acting as catalysts. Seasoned politicians they may be, but they cannot fathom why students from the premier Indian institutes of technology and farmers from rural villages are backing this activist, who seems to have come from nowhere.

What's worse, the government cannot figure a way out. If it passes an anti-corruption law, many of its own lawmakers may end up in jail. If it does not, people will keep flooding on to the streets. The best outcome would be for the government to eat humble pie and bring Anna back to a real, equal negotiating table. Whether it will or not remains to be seen.

What has happened? How has a sleepy, defeatist India suddenly been galvanised into action? Why do our people, used to a feudal-colonial setup for centuries, suddenly want their politicians to be accountable, rather than treat them like kings? It is difficult to answer these questions at the moment, as we are still in the middle of the movement. However, a few things are clear: India seems to have suddenly woken up to an intense craving for the good and the honest.

With Anna's repeated success at shaking the government, it has also become cool to be righteous. The young generation, brought up to believe that power is everything, now sees a role model in Hazare, who is taking the mickey out of India's most powerful by goodness and virtue alone.

This mass infusion of morality in young Indians will be the biggest contribution of this movement, beyond the actual law. Truth has trounced power, and that does not happen very often in India.

On a flight from Delhi to Mumbai on 16 August, I teased a policeman at the airport security check. I asked him why the police arrested Anna in the morning. He kept a studied, official silence as he frisked me and stamped my boarding pass. As I left the checkpoint, he whispered in my ear: "Sir, my seniors may be with the government, but I am with Anna."

Chetan Bhagat is India's best-selling English-language novelist and, according to Time magazine, one of the 100 most influential people in the world. Born in Delhi in 1974, he travels widely in his home country, often to small towns. His books deal with the lives, fears, aspiration and troubles of young Indians.


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« Reply #6 on: Aug 18, 2011 12:15 PM »

I've just watched your link. Not sure what your problem is with this guy. All he is doing is fasting during Ramadhan like the Muslims do. Maybe he would get some Hidiyat from it and become Muslim.
And while he is fasting, he isn't eating or drinking any Harram stuff.
Yes, corruption wont go away, but at least this guy is trying to get rid of it?
Anyway, hopefully India will fragment and disintegrate, in the way of the Soviet Union. The country is too big to be ruled affectively as one country, and the people are too different to live together. It needs to be a bunch of smaller countries.

I hope Allah gives you Hidayah. That's all I can say.

wsalam,

I don't see what's so wrong with him either?? To start change you have to start with bringing attention to the problem. Why do prisoner's have hunger strikes? To show dissent and bring attention to problems. How does change take place in the world? The Arab spring has shown us it can start from a single person and catch on fire from there. The interesting thing is that the Indian gov't arrested him!! and for what exactly/??


Well, there a lot of things wrong in the whole setup. On the face of it, if we look at the Jan Lokpal bill, there are a ton of loopholes that can be violated and will lead to further corruption. We're having debates and debates about the effectiveness of the Lokpal and better alternatives to it.

India already has anti corruption laws and agencies in place but the problem is that these agencies themselves are corrupt. What guarantee do you have that the Lokpal won't follow suit?

Next, I asked the same thing to Kiran Bedi(Anna's henchwoman) when she came on the Riz Khan show on Al Jazeera. Her answer was that the Lokpal will be insulated from politicians and government in the same way that the Comptroller Auditor General and the Chief Election Commissioner are. There are two questions that arise out of this-
#1 The Lokpal members are human beings, how can somebody say that they can't be influenced by the very people they're supposed to prosecute? The way things operate in India, it'll be very easy for anyone to wave a wad of cash at the authorities and slip out unscathed. Or, our politicians are known criminals..they can easily threaten the Lokpal guys with death or anything similar to that.
#2 How can you ensure implementation of the law at the grassroot level? Indian law and its enforcement is known for being operationally ineffective. Taking the same Comptroller Auditor General(CAG) and the Chief Election Commissioner(CEC) as examples - what was the CAG doing when the 2G spectrum scam was being played out? where was he when Suresh Kalmadi cooked the books and made away with millions of Commonwealth Games' funds? There can be no guarantee that the Lokpal will stop me or anybody else from paying a bribe to the traffic policeman on the road when he catches me for driving without a license.

So much for facts...let's move to theories Wink

Lately, the Congress(it's the name of a political party) govt has been cracking down on right wing Hindu extremists who have been planning, plotting and executing terrorist activities. The opposition party, BJP and it's allies are all right wing Hindus and prior to the crackdown, every terrorist activity in India was supposed to be done by Muslim militants, like everywhere else in the world. For example, the Makka Masjid blast in Hyderabad was thought to be the handiwork of a group called Indian Mujahideen until a Swami Aseemanand from the RSS(right wing Hindu party) confessed to the crime. And before him there were many who were caught - Sadhvi Pragya, a retd Major. etc. A news channel even did a sting operation on an RSS member where they caught him on tape saying that he can start riots throughout the country in exchange for money. Before Anna Hazare and his farcical fasting fanaticism, news headlines were dominated by the arrests and trials of members of these groups. So, there's a conspiracy theory that Anna Hazare is an agent of the BJP,RSS,VHP,Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena etc etc and he's been brought out to save their faces and shift the focus to something else. Once the focus is shifted, the trial becomes easier because without govt pressure, and pressure from the right wing parties, courts will let these terrorists go.

All in all, the whole idea of anti corruption is being banked upon by these groups and they're slipping away, in fact they're supporting Anna. The people as always, don't know the other angle and hence they're supporting Anna and protesting for what looks to be a fantastic fantasy.
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 18, 2011 12:25 PM »

Salaaaam


I don't see what's so wrong with him either?? To start change you have to start with bringing attention to the problem.

I support the later phrase in above 100%.

But to the issue of protests I guess we differ. We are not questioning their derogatory ideals per se. We need change in many aspects! But ist all change that's genuine? I suppose no. May be we think differently or I am more realist, but I so much oppose the way things are going in the middle east. Don't you see that most governments are similar? Some people so much desire power, and are using the masses to achieve that. Some loss their lives and at the end, even if the leadership is overthrown, things goes as before, or worse. The aim could never be defeated.

There are anti-corruption acts inplemented during previous republic here in Nigeria. The odd thing is, the government is using that to knock down anybody it thinks is a threat! Does the the law then serves? To me awareness, knowledge and faith is what people need now. Let the masses not be influenced in anyway. If the yearning comes straight from their heart, then revolution would be as easy as unrepping moderatesufi(...lol). Sky wl then be their limit!see that most governments are similar? Some people so much desire power, and are using the masses to achieve that. Some loss their lives and at the end, even if the leadership is overthrown, things goes as before, or worse. The aim could never be defeated.

There are anti-corruption acts inplemented during previous republic here in Nigeria. The odd thing is, the government is using that to knock down anybody it thinks is a threat! Does the the law then serves? To me awareness, knowledge and faith is what people need now. Let the masses not be influenced in anyway. If the yearning comes straight from their heart, then revolution would be as easy as unrepping moderatesufi(...lol). Sky wl then be their limit!

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 18, 2011 01:27 PM »

Quote
Some loss their lives and at the end, even if the leadership is overthrown, things goes as before, or worse. The aim could never be defeated.
You're spot on bro! That's why even I oppose both the Indian uprising and the Arab. For us, the Lokpal CANNOT be a comprehensive solution to corruption. There are ways and ways and ways through which it can be exploited.
Change cannot happen overnight, it needs to be gradual and in a way that addresses problems as and when they arise. You can't overhaul a system which is largely cultural in a jiffy. But, all these things are valid when the people who spearhead the change are honest and morally sound. The irony is, that in today's world, there are very few.
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 18, 2011 03:32 PM »


Change cannot happen overnight, it needs to be gradual and in a way that addresses problems as and when they arise. You can't overhaul a system which is largely cultural in a jiffy. But, all these things are valid when the people who spearhead the change are honest and morally sound.

Thats the truth bro. You deserve a rep and a bebzi..

The irony is, that in today's world, there are very few.

Yes and only few. Therefore the target should be at making those few turn to many, then together they can strive for a the better.

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 18, 2011 05:22 PM »

Akhan you have stated a whole bunch of stuff on why you think he is a member of the RSS/BJP etc. But It isn't the RSS or the BJP who congress has arrested it is him.
You have also listed stuff about how he might be associated with Muslim killing terrorists, but again it isn't the Muslim killing terrorists being arrested, it is him.
Killing Muslims has never been a crime in India, but this Hindu fasting like a Muslim clearly is.
Now, what is it, which is so illegal about this man fasting?

He has brought a bill that is Anti-corruption. Congress says his bill is rubbish, and you agree. I don't know anything about his bill, so it may well be rubbish. But since when has making up a rubbish bill been a criminal offense in India?
Whether his bill is rubbish or good is an issue that is disagreed on. What isn't disagreed on is the fact that his arrest was illegal and political not judicial.
Nothing new there, Muslims have always been arrested, illegally and for political reasons in India. Maybe fasting like a Muslim makes the upper castes believe they can treat him like a Muslim?

Muslims need to liberate India from upper caste rule. Jai Dalit!
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 18, 2011 06:15 PM »

Dude, you're going off on a tangent here. I am talking about why supporting him is not a good idea and that's it! I don't care how Congress deals with him. That's totally upto them.

Talking about arresting him, the police had imposed Section 144 in the area which he violated. That was used to justify his arrest. But still, I don't care because his arrest doesn't matter to me.
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 18, 2011 08:53 PM »

Section 144
Whoever, being armed with any deadly weapon, or with anything which, used as a weapon of offence, is likely to cause death, is a member of an unlawful assembly, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

How does this relate to fasting?


I know you don't care about his arrest. And neither do I, because the worst sins of India isn't their corruption. But it is the fact that they make statues of wood or stone out of their own hands and than worship them.
That is their sin that Allah will never forgive as well as their son that makes them deserving of hell fire.
We really need to do dawa to these people and demonstrate to them that the statues they make and worship can not help them or harm them even if they feed milk to them.

It would be better for them if they give the milk they waste on their statues to the poor and starving all around them.
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 19, 2011 12:27 AM »

Section 144 also includes the prohibition of assembly of four or more people. He had a huge following with him.
In any case, even if it was illegal, I still don't care. I wouldn't care even if they hanged him.
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 19, 2011 02:18 AM »

Bro moderatesufi you are forcing bro Akhan to say more he intended. I suppose u got his point of not supporting an uprising?

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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