// The existence of God.
    Peace be upon you,
    Welcome to Madinat Al-Muslimeen, the City of the Muslims. Please feel free to visit the different hot spots around the Madina and post any discussion, articles, suggestions, comments, art, poetry, events, recipes, etc etc. Basically anything you would like to share with your sisters and brothers!! Non-muslims are also of course quite welcome to share their comments. If this is your first time here, you need to register with the city council. Once you register you have 15 days to post your mandatory introduction and then you will be upgraded to a Madina Citizen, God Willing. Please note that our city does have regulations which are listed in the city constitution. Read them carefully before moving in. P.S. - You can also post anonymously if you wish. P.S.S. - Also be sure to check out our ARCHIVES from 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 & 2007. :)

Random Quote: Intelligence is the shadow of objective truth. How can the shadow vie with sunshine? - Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The existence of God.  (Read 3740 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LukeS
Madina Seeker
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 0
LukeS has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 49


« on: Sep 08, 2008 05:37 PM »


I believe in natural science, which offers us the best evidence based account of the workings of the world. So far, science has not found God. I believe in "occams razor" which says do not over complicate your theories of existence. I think that belief in God is such an over-complication. It does not really add physically attestable understanding, and being a super-natural hypothesis, can hardly ever be proven by conventional standards.


Theologians are in a epistemic void, and can only have faith and not knowledge, except perhaps by accident (if that could count as knowledge). However, this does not prevent believers from being "certain" in their faith, and from there as well as being charitable, they can also kill and maim in the name of their God.

I believe in humanistic principles where humans use 'natural reason' to understand the world around them, not so-called revelation. Also in moral affairs we, I believe, are better off turning inwards to our humanity, and looking towards our brighter philosophes, for a moral compass.

We are not perfect, but the appearance of perfection in Godliness I believe is an illusion based on a misunderstanding, on belief gone too far without warrant.

We are fallible, but it is better to acknowledge that all our guidance is subject to human limitation, that to pretend we have the final analysis and answer. This is because, for starters, the very existence of "God" remains far from being reasonably, verifiably established.
blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #1 on: Sep 09, 2008 04:12 AM »

salaam Luke!

Ok so God is perfect all knowing and created everything. That is my belief. We both believe in humanistic principles. But who is to decide what is right? what is the best punishment? what is 'modest'? everyone has different opinions and we are only human so we do not know what is correct for us therefore we accept Gods ruling because He is all knowing. 

its like this.. you hit your head, your in pain. but we do not see the pain. but we still know its their. you just know. you have to open your heart. I dont know the exact words but I remember Hamza Yusuf saying that those who believe in God feel it they just know and they say look at the world around you, how can you say there is no God?' and the atheists say the same thing but end with 'how can you say there is a God?'
Its either a hadith or Quranic ayah but it s saying basically if you believe in me then im there kind a thing.

the problem is that most atheists are centered on the christian view that God is all good but Muslims believe that God created the bad and the good. and its all a test for us.

You are saying that a 'God' is being there is not established but if you just look at the human body , its so complicated that scientists can tell you a basic but they cannot tell you the extreme details. everything is so perfect Alhumdulilah that someone has got to make it right?

you might say wars have been faught for religions. some have 'crusades' maybe but mostly its all about power/money interest,, nothing really ever had to do with religion.  And religon has brought only good. Before Islam during the jahiliyah they would bury daughters alive and do all kind s of bad things. But Islam brought justice and morals.

'kill in the name of God'? I dont know people who want to do horrible things will make ne excuse to do it.

Im not sure how much you have studied Islam, but Islam and science do not conflict.  There are many thing s in Quran that scientist s are just finding out recently.

blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #2 on: Sep 09, 2008 04:17 AM »

salaam

If you are really sincere then plz check out these articles:

http://whyislam.org/877/Modern_Science/
LukeS
Madina Seeker
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 0
LukeS has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 49


« Reply #3 on: Sep 09, 2008 07:46 PM »

Salams, wa baraka for answering,


I am all too familiar with the so-called "miracles" of the Koran, but really all that has happened is that people have found verses with a vuague similarity to scientific concepts and ideas, and than the claim for miraculuos prescience is made, POST HOC every time. To add  to the embarrasment, the claim is then made that "muslims have been aware of this science for millenia". Ha ha. If you  were real scientists, you would see the difference between science's systematic theory bound predictions, and rambling, vuague religious poetry, and between honest endeavour and sneaky tricks. In fact I am afraid for the future of science precisely because of Muslims.

Here is the challenge: go look in the Koran, and find one peice of miraculous science that is currently not known about in the genuine scientific community, and go get yourself a Nobel prize.

Of course, you can't do that. What you do is the equivalent of taking a sly look at the answers at the back of the book, and then alter your answers, and clain you were inspired by genius (nay, "God") all along. Holy cow, you get a gold star for cheating, eh?

The challenge remains, look through for one miracle which beats the scientist to the answer, and go post it to Nature journal or the New Scientist magazine. Let's see something on the scope of fingerprints and forensics, or cosmology, embryology, or cladistics, or genetic engineering, something which one ickle verse obviously predicts, and predicts in unambiguous scientific detail.

But a better challange would be to produce, as a community, a Nobel prize winner instead of another Mufti.

I won't hold my breath.

Then again sister, the people who mention uneducated peasants and blind, brinwashed zeal, could just have a point, nay?

Finally , to see how scientific you are, ask yourself, "Do I believe in evolution?". You will find yourself in an enlightened minority, and going against the grain of even the "great scientist" Harun Yahya, if you do believe in common anscestry, mutation and natural selection. You know, I have even heard a fundie say that evolution is in the Koran. Well it takes all types.

Finally, no finally this time, please do not commit a fallacy of relevance. Please do not think, just because you are happy, and healthy, and maybe even wise, that this proves your belief and way of like to be grounded in actual supernatural inspiration. You say you accept God's all knowing ruling, but really all you have is faith in men who say they are inspired.  At least you know that the men exist, (and no I'm not trying to start a feminist revolution).

Knowledge in recent tradition has beed described as belief acquired through a reliable process (see "reliablism"). Your senses tell you that men exist, and it is intersublectively varified and varifiable. I have shown you how the so called "miracles" are most likely post hoc interpretations of a vuague text, and will reiterate that science, as the most relieble process we know for giving us knowledge about the world around us, differs greatly from blind leaps of faith, and takleed, and other such Islamic 'virtues'.

If you disagree with what I say, then that is fine, but it would be more "humanistic" if you used rigoruos logic and reason, rather than leaps in the dark, into the "unseen", and "unknowable" to ground your sense of knowledge, and to embody your syllogistic justifications.

And what I think of the sense of the divine is what I make of other horemonal and emotional responses to other forms of ideation, like thinking of an FSM or IPU, or even of a flower. They - the horemones and feelings - are material entities in the bloodstream and the brain, they belong to the workings of that good ole' grey matter, and the body it belongs in, not some response to a ghostlike spirit in the sky. Did you know that a sense of the "numinous" (spiritual presence) could be created by stimulating the temporal lobes? Actually, with this in mind, it is unlikely that you (or I ) will change our minds, as we have differing basal neurological states and different "material spiritualities". No matter what I say, you will have that feeling, and it will seem to attest as strongly as your eyes.

However, it'sbeen nice listening to myself (just kidding), back to you.  (insha allah).
blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #4 on: Sep 09, 2008 10:46 PM »

salaam Luke

So what do you believe happens after one dies? why is it that everyone dies? Do you believe that people who were oppressed in this life will get no justice for it??? Do you believe that evil doers will get away just like that? Is there any justice in that?

My other question is if you dont believe in God then why do you keep saying 'inshAllah'? or are you just being sarcastic towards us?

looking forward to your answers inshAllah
blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #5 on: Sep 09, 2008 11:19 PM »

so the 'poetry' and science is just a coincedence? comeon really. It has already been observed by scientists not regular people that say Qur'an sais what people just discovered today.

also Allah swt tells us in Qur'an to gain knowledge. Im not a scientist so I cannot do what you ask but I believe I read some people do study Qur'an to find stuff out. I dont know what the outcome is . but that is not the point. My point is when stuff was found it was realized that it was in the Qur'an all along. in a diff way. if it was very clear then what would be the point of seeking knowledge but Allah swt wants us to seek knowledge.
walahualim

Islam is logical. if it was not many would not convert, it would not be the fastest growing religion in the world. it makes sense . 

faith in men?  Do you know the former cat stevens never met a muslim before he became muslim. all he did was read the whole qur'an 'the words of God and became Muslim.
um aboodi
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 26
um aboodi barely matters :(um aboodi barely matters :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 606



« Reply #6 on: Sep 12, 2008 04:22 AM »

Welcome aboard LukeS

I am not sure what you want LukeS.  So you don't believe in God.  What, now?  Do you want a prize for that amazing discovery?  People have not been believing in God for centuries so you are hardly original in this disbelief.

If you don't believe in God, that's your choice. We as Muslims accept that not everyone believes in God.  So, thanks for your opinions, but no thanks, I will stick to Islam.


Take care
blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #7 on: Sep 12, 2008 05:55 AM »

salaam um aboodi. Im not sure if you saw the other post about the 99 names of God. Well sister Sofia told Luke that before understanding that its better to discuss where there is a God or not. So that is why Luke started this post. It was not to impose his opinions on us.

Anyway I hope sister Sofia comes bak so she can finish what she started.

salaam
lucid
Bro
Sr. Member
*

Reputation Power: 15
lucid has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 387



« Reply #8 on: Sep 12, 2008 04:57 PM »

please explain to me what would be verifable proof that God exists?

1) God is not a human -- you cannot meet God.

2) You cannot see God.  God is unlike/beyond creation, he does not have a localized position or physical presence in spacetime (spacetime is after all created), so you cannot scatter things off of God and see him.  (You see stuff when light scatters off whatever you are seeing.)

3) Since God is really apart from spacetime, and you cannot scatter stuff off "God" you cannot do an experiment to detect his presence.

4) God is more of a concept for feeble-bodied human beings.  The only way God can be known/detected are through signs, imprints of his design

5) One might think just as in everyday life you can detect the ABSENCE of a someone/something in control by the appearance of haphazardness, chaos, unpredictability, so you might be able to detect the absence of a designer by haphazardness irregularity in the laws of the universe...etc.   However, interestingly, there seems to be a unified set of laws governing the whole universe -- there is no irregularity, no haphazard laws...etc.

6) In fact, the remarkable thing is that the universe is comprehensible -- i.e. it can be understood by a unified set of laws which everything seems to obey.  This is clear indication of design.

7) You may find this kind of indirect proof unsatisfactory; you may want to see God Almighty standing before you, before you are willing to believe.  However, God Almighty, by definition (one that transcends space and time, is not bound by the 4 dimensional universe, etc) can never appear at you front door and knocking on it to see if you are there.  The only way you can understand the existence of God/Design is through these indirect signs.  They all point in the same direction.  Individually, they may see small, but taken as a collective -- all the signs in nature of miraculous design, from the intricate patterns on leaves, to the very governing of the cosmos through a small set of laws -- they are rather strong proof of design

7b) People from Christian backgrounds have large problems with believing in God.  But that is because their basic concept of God is warped.  To them God is not perfect, unlike anything in creation. To them, God is at times human, at times imperfect, and at other times utterly transcendent.  Muslims don't have barriers in thinking like this to overcome, and so the idea that there is a God, is taken almost without question among Muslims.  You will find almost inevitably that all the Muslims who are athiests know little about Islam, and have taken their idea of God from Judeo-Christian sources/texts/ideas etc. As on idiotic Muslim physics professor once screamed at me "I am not going to believe in some guy up in heaven manipulating things!!!"   --- an idea which is utterly preposterous among knowledgable muslms (to muslims, God cannot be a guy.  God cannot be sitting in a chair, and God cannot be localized in a place called heaven -- a created haven).

sofia
Sis
Full Member
*

Reputation Power: 8
sofia has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 106


Ya Muqallib Al-Quloob thabbit quloobana ala deenik


« Reply #9 on: Sep 15, 2008 04:28 AM »

LukeS -
(sorry for the delay; Ramadan is a bustling month!)

One question before we proceed (and really, Abu Khaled, I'd be obliged for you to handle these types of debates):

What is your definition of God?

"My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (Qur'aan 20.114)
"Our Lord! We believe, so forgive us, and have mercy on us, for You are the Best of all who show mercy!" (23:109)
"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves..."(3:10)
LukeS
Madina Seeker
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 0
LukeS has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 49


« Reply #10 on: Sep 30, 2008 02:22 PM »

salaam Luke

So what do you believe happens after one dies? why is it that everyone dies? Do you believe that people who were oppressed in this life will get no justice for it??? Do you believe that evil doers will get away just like that? Is there any justice in that?


Ah the argument fdrom moral necessity. I don't buy it. I think that unfortunately, oppressed people will have no revenge or reward in the afterlife, for there is no afterlife. There are insects and viruses etc that do us harm, and they won't burn, and we can do other animals harm, and we won't be forced to pay. Nature is a "toughie".
Quote
My other question is if you dont believe in God then why do you keep saying 'inshAllah'? or are you just being sarcastic towards us?

looking forward to your answers inshAllah
Eid mubarrak. Sorry, I never meant to offend with "insha Allah's" If you could have seen my body language you would have understood I meant no harm. I like the phrase because it shows that people are careful enought to thing that nothing is certain, which is a wise philosophical stance.
LukeS
Madina Seeker
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 0
LukeS has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 49


« Reply #11 on: Sep 30, 2008 02:29 PM »

5) One might think just as in everyday life you can detect the ABSENCE of a someone/something in control by the appearance of haphazardness, chaos, unpredictability, so you might be able to detect the absence of a designer by haphazardness irregularity in the laws of the universe...etc.   However, interestingly, there seems to be a unified set of laws governing the whole universe -- there is no irregularity, no haphazard laws...etc.


Well if you have studied physics  you will know that for example radioactive decay is one such random phenomena.
lucid
Bro
Sr. Member
*

Reputation Power: 15
lucid has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 387



« Reply #12 on: Oct 01, 2008 01:44 AM »

well if you have studied physics  you will know that for example radioactive decay is one such random phenomena.

quite interesting that you would make such a bold statement.

radioactivity is not a random phenomenon per say.  it is basically quantum mechanical and given by some tunneling amplitude.  and while this wavefunction basically gives only the probability amplitude for something to occur, the wavefunction is governed by unambiguous mathematical laws -- the schrodinger equation.

the random part you were probably referring to is the statistical distribution of emitted particles -- which is usually something like a Poisson distribution...however this has nothing to do with fundamental randomness.  the only fundamental randomness arises from the fact the quantum mechanics is inherently probabilistic instead of deterministic.  however, when it comes to the wavefunction, it is deterministic.

ps:  it would be beneficial to display less hubris in the future

 
Anonymous
Bro
Sr. Member
*

Reputation Power: 22
Anonymous barely matters :(Anonymous barely matters :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 355


ANONYMOUS Post


« Reply #13 on: Oct 26, 2008 06:16 PM »

Bro lukes,

Man can either like it or hate it,Allah exists.
The Qur'an says in a lot of ayahs, that there are signs for those who are wise,or those who reflect.
Islam too is not against anything logical,maybe the reason Man has for doubting the existence of God is his inabilty to see Him,but there are a lot of things we cant see.
Remember that.

This post submitted using the ANONYMOUS button on the main Madina menu. Please reply here publicly so that the original poster can read any replies.
blackrose
Sis
Hero Member
*

Reputation Power: 3
blackrose has no influence :(
Gender: Female
Posts: 1649



« Reply #14 on: Oct 27, 2008 04:43 PM »

Quote
Ah the argument fdrom moral necessity. I don't buy it. I think that unfortunately, oppressed people will have no revenge or reward in the afterlife, for there is no afterlife. There are insects and viruses etc that do us harm, and they won't burn, and we can do other animals harm, and we won't be forced to pay. Nature is a "toughie".

Quote

ahh then you have a very saad veiw of life. if everyone thought like this then think about how much more evil there will be in the world because they think they wont be accounted for it. there would be no care to be 'good'
the viruses and other things that 'naturally' harm us in life are all a test to us. and if we pass it thru patience and belief we know there will be reward in the hereafter. if u dont believe in that then how do you get thru trials and harms. how do you deal camly when you are inflicted with a virus.

Quote
Sorry, I never meant to offend with "insha Allah's" If you could have seen my body language you would have understood I meant no harm. I like the phrase because it shows that people are careful enought to thing that nothing is certain, which is a wise philosophical stance.

inshAllah means if
God wills it will happen if God does not will it will not happen. you said you like it because then one is careful nothing is certain. see that is thing about Islam. you never have anything to loose by believeing in it. by following it . because it only brings about good in all kinds of ways.
MUHAMMAD THE GREATEST MAN
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 5
MUHAMMAD THE GREATEST MAN has no influence :(
Gender: Male
Posts: 17


« Reply #15 on: Sep 30, 2013 10:39 PM »

Allah is the same God that all the prophets, including Jesus, in the Holy worshipped and called their adherents to believe in and to worship, hence, the claim that the god of Muslims is not the god of the Holy Book is absurd and untenable. Cognates of the name "Allah" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.

http://www.knowmuhammad.org/admin-article-c/-/asset_publisher/a5TE/content/god-in-islam
anisafatima
Newbie
*

Reputation Power: 0
anisafatima is not to be trusted!
Gender: Female
Posts: 28


« Reply #16 on: Oct 02, 2013 09:10 AM »

Almighty Allah (SWT) is the sole lord of this universe. There should be no ambiguity about the existence of Allah Almighty (SWT) if He (SWT) does not exist then this universe would not have existed. He is the only sustainer of this universe and everything beyond.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: