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jannah
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« on: Apr 10, 2012 05:22 PM »


Here's a question for the guys.... if you had a B.A./B.S. degree would you marry someone with a P.h.D or M.D.?

I've been trying to set this guy up with an MD but I think he feels really intimidated.


(I can see how a guy would feel insecure if she made more money than him etc, but isn't marriage about companionship/love etc? That's what we need the most from each other, not who brings home the (halal turkey) bacon?)


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Fozia
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 10, 2012 06:56 PM »

I think for a lot of people salary equals respect.

I've a friend who's a high paid accountant & will not marry a man who earns less as she (rightly) states that when she stops working due to child rearing etc the lifestyle she's accustomed to would deteriorate which would lead to resentment & is not something she is willing to compromise on.

I agree with her.

In your case I would expect dude to be in a professional sphere similar to the MD lady otherwise it won't work.
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akhan
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 10, 2012 07:11 PM »

I've a friend who's a high paid accountant & will not marry a man who warns less as she (rightly) states that when she stops working due to child rearing etc the lifestyle she's accustomed to would deteriorate which would lead to resentment & is not something she is willing to compromise on.
Point! I didn't think lifestyle was that important a factor, until now lol
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jannah
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 10, 2012 07:40 PM »

akhan u changed ur mind quick from the chat lol!!


hmmmm fozia so what ur saying is that women can never marry down because it will always cause resentment?


what if ur friends high paying professional husband loses his job or has a downgrade, won't that cause resentment? these things are just not guaranteed in our world. what if he always wants her to work to keep their "lifestyle"?

if from the outset someone wants to marry someone with a certain pay scale (ie lawyer/doctor) that's another issue...(and i have problems with that too)

in this case both the people i know are very compatible, they know each other, have similar social circles, mindsets, islamic levels, goals etc...i don't see why it couldn't work.

 
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jannah
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 10, 2012 07:51 PM »

btw isn't her money her own?? so if she works or doesnt she could do what she wants with it. why would this affect the marriage?


yeahhh i think i'm too much of a hopeless romantic for this discussion sigh.
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Hard2Hit
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 10, 2012 08:30 PM »

A.A.

Lifestyle is a factor indeed, but our lifestyle must change for a greater good.

"Things don't give you happiness. Consumerism is mostly a weapon of mass depression."

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Fozia
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 10, 2012 10:00 PM »

Money is possibly one of the main sources of conflict within a marriage IMO.

There is the love conquers all factor, but I've never been in love so wouldn't know.

My personal opinion thro observing life and it's couples is its best to marry a person of similar lifestyles as you and make it crystal clear from the outset that if you work now it's no guarantee that it will continue to be the case in future. I don't know a single woman who didn't want to take it down a notch when having a family. Focuses change expenses keep on growing.
Also I've noticed a very disturbing trend where many husbands of working wives  become accustomed to the lifestyle their wives wages bring in. Then they begin to resent it when their wives stop working or go part time. As men who've been used to a two wage household do not consider homemaker as a valid or plausible lifestyle choice especially as it has a very real affect on their lifestyle.....


It's not romantic, no.

Money may not be the be all & end all but it certainly makes life easier.
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
Fozia
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 10, 2012 10:05 PM »

Also if husband is a high wage earning professional there's a very good chance he won't be out of work long. He'll be back in the job market a lot sooner than a shop assistant or whatever who are very easily replaceable to low pay scale individuals.

A high income earner will have savings and investments for such contingencies, a bigger chance of lower debt in general as they have more disposable income so a bigger financial buffer than a person who lives month by pay month.

Also sis if this girl is not susceptible to this rishta don't push it, cos if it very possibly goes south they'll blame you...


After all it's far easier to come to terms with ones own mistake then living with someone else's!
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
Fozia
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 10, 2012 10:10 PM »

Also no woman who works uses her pay just on herself it goes in the family pot. Or it becomes a source of resentment between the couple unless husband is insanely rich.....
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
austmuslimah
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 10, 2012 10:41 PM »

Im a romantic as well.... So I would say, let them get to know each other, and see if money is really an issue. For some people it really isnt, and some people dont have ego issues about how much they earn compared to their partner.

Isnt the whole point of marriage to help and support each other, by whatever means possible? And not being selfish in a "mine or yours" way?

A compassionate guy will not be intimidated ... but let this couple determine things for themselves
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tq
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 11, 2012 02:16 AM »

Assalamo elikuim
I kind of agree with Sr.Fozia. since that is what mostly happen. Ideally both should be from same or closer background.
But then ideally money shouldnt be a factor either Smiley i.e. who is earning more .

But , I personally think and believe that as long as they both have sort of same level of education(both college graduate, or both hs graduate) and family values, money shouldnt be a issue -IF the girl is ready to accept that her husband earns less than her and that has nothing to do with how she should treat him.

I have seen cases where sometimes husband earns more and sometimes wife, and that hasnt effected their relationship.
But I have also seen couples where husband doesnt respect wife if she is a home maker and also couples where husband is treated with no respect due to earning less or him being from a lower social economic background.

Quote
hmmmm fozia so what ur saying is that women can never marry down because it will always cause resentment?
I know you asked fozia, but I will answer Smiley , no that is not true. May be I am ooollld and dont understand newer generation, but resentment in marriage comes only when one doesnt respect other.

So in short , if girl is the one who is saying no then drop it . If the guy is saying no , then ask him to meet the girl and then decide.
Wasalam
tq
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jannah
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 11, 2012 04:56 AM »

wsalam,

Interesting feedback ppls!! But where's the rest of the brothers on this??  Shocked

Quote
Isnt the whole point of marriage to help and support each other, by whatever means possible? And not being selfish in a "mine or yours" way?
Yes!! You and me are definitely romantics sis austmuslimah!!

Fozia, I do see how resentment can occur about financial issues in many different ways. If she works, there's resentment; if she doesn't work there's resentment! Aahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! It's definitely something that needs to be discussed thoroughly before marriage.

I have to say I'm sensitive about this topic because I think of marriage as a team effort. If she doesn't work, she does other stuff to contribute to a marriage. And if she works, she can use that working to enhance her life and the money for personal things. It should be a happy choice for her either way. It's sad if there's resentment or lack of respect in the marriage because of that choice.

Quote
So in short , if girl is the one who is saying no then drop it . If the guy is saying no , then ask him to meet the girl and then decide.
Tq good summary lol! I'm not sure what they've decided, but they'll definitely make their own decisions about what is acceptable to them. I was just surprised how it was such a big issue that needed to be discussed before anything else.
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tq
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 11, 2012 02:39 PM »

Assalamo elikuim
Quote
Interesting feedback ppls!! But where's the rest of the brothers on this?? 
I think the brothers are afraid to answer either way Smiley if they yes it does matter , we will say that they are insecure and if they say that it doesnt , we will say that they are materialistic and want wife to bring $$ Smiley

Also one factor could be the age of the guy and specially girl (ok I am generalizing her ). The younger the girl is , she would want to look up to her husband, respect him more which most people equate to earning more unfortunately Sad
If the girl is  compartatively older and more mature she would consider other important factors like his character and values.
There might be some exceptions .
If you look at all modern and classic novels, movies , the guy is always more finanacially stable than girl Smiley - thats right, lets just blame it on media Smiley which has made us change our values SmileySmiley

Wasalam
tq
Now I will get back to working and making $$ Smiley Smiley
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JustOne
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 12, 2012 10:47 AM »

i know 2 girls who were more qualified than her husband. both ended up in divorce.
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Mubaraka
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 12, 2012 12:21 PM »

Quote
i know 2 girls who were more qualified than her husband. both ended up in divorce.

Were they the ones who earned better money or  were simply more qualified?
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JustOne
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 12, 2012 01:55 PM »

One definitely earned more money... The other one I'm not too sure about.

Note: I think it takes a really brave and confident  man to marry a woman who is more qualified, a better earner, or older...

Most men are only okay with this in theory but would never practice it. Sad... And rather unislamic.
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Fozia
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 13, 2012 12:33 AM »

salam


It's difficult to explain how wrong things can go if you've never been there.

OK look at it like this.

Most actually every man I have ever met considers housework and cooking to be 'women's work'. Now imagine you work full time then you gotta come home and cook and clean up before you sleep and in between you also have to be a 'wife'.

Most if not all my friends are highly skilled professionals, one friend who got married had a set up with her husband where they agreed that one person would cook and the other would wash dishes and they'd swap after six months, both worked, my friends job was more stressful and her hours ridiculous, once a month she would have to work till 4am!

Now what happened was that she came home and cooked, her husband would expect a fresh curry each day because he didn't eat day old curries or leftovers, and pasta and pizza was not real food and take out was not the same as a home made curry....then the dishes he'd do later....or leave for days till my friend would have to wash up to be able to cook and serve food!

When the six months were up friends husband decided that cooking was 'women work' and ain't no way he was doing it.....

My friend hired a cook and a cleaner, it was going to kill her otherwise especially then when she had her first child.

I remember coming home from work and being so tired I wanted to cry but I'd have to stand and cook, while ex would be sitting or talking to friends or playing on the internet and then he'd be sat there eating food then I'd be cleaning up......


I've worked all my life, what's the point of getting married if all marriage gives me is jailer who I must dance attendance to and added hardships, when my life currently is far easier?


Also say if you don't mind working and you want to spend the rest of your life doing your job, when you have children I and my friends wanted to spend time with our new babies at least till they started school, this means a paycut. You may not mind this but what if it annoys your husband? Leaving behind a tiny baby because you have to work or the bills wont get paid is agony and could lead to resentment from one or both sides.

I married below me, it never bothered me I don't need anyone to buy me things (just as well), but he resented it and was massively insecure and it was manifest in his controlling and jealous behaviour.

It's not ego at all, it's practicalities, in theory love conquers all and so what if we don't have food we have eachother, in reality we don't tend to have a grand love story as a backdrop of our marriages, we get married and build lives together and if there's not enough money to send our children to good schools well I for one cannot contemplate sending my girls to the terrifying examples that pass of as state education in my area.....And whats the point of sending your kids to amazing schools if there's no one there for them when they come home, good schools can only do so much for our kids we need to provide strong loving supportive islamic environments in the home too otherwise it's all pointless, the kids are out roaming with their not so great friends while we are out pulling in wages and then one wonders where one went wrong and why our chidlren are feral.....

See if one is a woman you're going thro all the above you will resent deeply being married to a man who is causing you hardships instead of alleviating them....

I'm still not explaining it well, but I know I'm not marrying anyone unless he's rich beyond belief, I get nothing from marriage except shackles otherwise. Yes I'd like to love him too, but it's not going to be the starting point, the starting point will be a guy who fits the Islamic criteria and a union my parents have blessed.....


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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
jannah
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 13, 2012 01:59 AM »

Wsalam,

I can understand people's bad experiences, and believe you me I've seen a ton of bad marriages. But not every marriage is a jail, and not every husband is a jailer, although many are. (BTW just because he's rich doesn't mean you won't have a controlling horrible husband too).

Alhamdulillah I've seen some really good marriages too, esp of the new generation, where the husbands are cooking and cleaning and helping out and compromising and sacrificing as well. True love does not conquer all, but if there's love in his heart for you it helps alot. (See the marriages where the husband does not have that feeling of love and you see how much harder it is.) Getting a husband that's on the same page as you and genuinely cares for you, now thats the hard part.
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Fozia
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 13, 2012 07:08 AM »

But isn't the love going to grow after the marriage?

The first couple I mentioned in my example (where dude wouldnt cook -or clean), they were really cute when they got engaged and he went looking for roses for his fiancee in the middle of the night when she accepted his proposal. Very romantic.... the situation was easily resolved because my friend was comfortably well off otherwise that would have caused huge repercussions. The two of them had decided on the chore split prior to marriage.
The marriage was a semi arranged one and the couple aren't muslim.

I've seen beautiful marriages with lovely husbands but the husband is the main earner as well as being a fundamentally decent human being.

My friend who doesn't want to marry a guy with less of an earning potential than her doesn't want to end up living with her in laws forever and no prospect of ever giving up her job to rear children which is fair enough in my opinion, I introduced her to a lovely guy (neither are muslim) and that was the main issue between them.

Money and social background aren't the only factors I'd take into account for a rishta he'd have to be sweet (nay saintly) of temprament and attractive, but other than that I can't see how the whole love thing would be top of the list as one can't tell one loves someone except over time and we tend to be married first....

The original example post on this thread is talking abut an introduction the girl is averse to it as she doesn't like what she sees on paper, I understand her feelings we tend to make spousal choices without the emotional drama because the guy is an introduction, he has to be right on paper for us to move forward.

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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
JustOne
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 13, 2012 10:29 AM »

Basically we have a warped notion of marriage. Back to this darned fairy tales ruining our lives thing...

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austmuslimah
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 14, 2012 09:18 AM »

Sis Fozia, your posts make me so sad ! I really really hope that inshallah all of us will get the best out of life that we are supposed to. Allah knows best.

I cant help but be a romantic. I love the idea of 2 muslims marrying, and helping each other get closer to Jannah, and just be in their own form of Jannah here on earth.

Not that im naive, I know life has a lot of hardships, and things arent always rosy, but at the end of they day, if through it all, you can still say you think Allah knows best and be happy regardless.

Back to the original post: it takes certain strength of character (in men and women) to look past the material and be accepting of others as they are. Both men and women sometimes put too much emphasis on things that make them second guess rishta proposals. Just pray, do istikharah, and inshallah we will be guided to whats right.
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JustOne
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 14, 2012 09:44 AM »

I know we have a lack of male opinions on this thread so I asked my husband and after reiterating that he hates hypothetical scenarios he said that a lot depends on how the wife would react to having a lower - paid husband. He said most women think they've married a loser anyway... For him to be a loser and not be able to provide for her- that would make her snooty and she would look down on him.

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austmuslimah
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 14, 2012 12:20 PM »

Just to remind everyone -- Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married Khadeja as his first wife, after having worked for her. She was rich and older than he was, but he had the strength of character to see her for who she was, and she had the strength of character to see his qualities as well.

At the end of the day, the wealth and qualifications dont determine our compatibility  --- its excessive pride in these things that lead to problems.

In my first post i said that a husband/wife have to work together and support each other, regardless of who has what degree and earning potential.
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jannah
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 14, 2012 12:28 PM »

Quote
I know we have a lack of male opinions on this thread

lol. i was originally looking for opinions from guys about if they felt intimidated or not. but as usual the sisters took over the convo!  Cheesy i doubt any guy would want to post in here cuz they'd have to defend their whole gender! or worse, risk criticism for their opinions. but hey for any lurkers out there,  there's always anonymous posting if you have an opinion??

but yeah our discussion veered into talking about women working and having more education and so on. and it looks like most ppl think that resentment/marriage problems/divorce is going to happen if the woman works and doesn't contribute to the family, or she makes more than he does, or she has more education than he does. sound about right??? so then our conclusions about educating our daughters needs to change. they should be educated at a very basic level, otherwise she's pricing herself out of the marriage market, non?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

back to the original situation. i think like it happens often in life, he's afraid that she'll reject him/won't be interested in him, and she feels that if he's interested in her, he should make the first move and approach her. so basically no one is going to make a move here and this will probably continue for years!

i was definitely a convert to the 'he's just not that into you' theory ie if he doesn't show express interest he's not interested, but this case shows that's not always true.


sis austmuslimah we posted at the same time!! i agree with you 100% we are like so compatible Wink
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Fozia
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« Reply #24 on: Apr 14, 2012 12:40 PM »

For a man with even an iota of the Prophet (saw) akhlaq I'd marry without a second glance.

I'm coming at this from a different point of view when I marry my assets are immediately halved.

Altho men do not Islamically have any rights over their wives independent wealth, in real life when things go wrong they're demanding the lions share. Living in the west as a woman & main breadwinner, theres a very good possibility id be paying out Spousal maintenance to any ex who earns less than me as well as handing over half the market value of my house jewellery & pensions. I'm not prepared to risk my children's futre like that.

The Prophet (SAW) was in a different league entirely.
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And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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