// What should I do???
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« on: Sep 20, 2012 08:35 PM »

Asalaam Alaikum
My husband and I have been married for five years. Before marriage he made it clear he does not want me to associate with men for whatever reason.  He did his best to get me a job at a place where I have few access with men. But all in all I met this guy whom we were together at school and at college. We were excited to see each and we exchanged numbers. I cant recall him calling but we would always talk on chat-whats up, gtalk and others. My friend had been married for 6 yrs and had no child. I had few problems conceiving myself so I offered help & even sent them to the doctor who helped me.
The crime I committed was not telling my husband all this. I told him I met a guy from school when we met & all he said was nice. Knowing him his face said alot more than the words. I didnt bother him with the details knowing how he feels.
Now heres my dilema. One saturday morning while I was taking a bath acall came on my phone. My husband asked if its ok to pick it up and I said yes. The friend had called and the only question my husband asked was 'for how long have you and my wife been in contact with one another?' The guy so no reason to lie but my husband just cut the phone. When I got out of the bathroom he was so furios and wanted to know what I was talking with this guy about. I tried to explain and he asked why I was hiding it from him. I told him I was not hiding it but still it didnt carry any water. He said he cant trust a wife who is not honest. The problem is now six months after the argument my husband still cant talk to me. We cant make  any convesation. He will only talk when he wants something. When I try to start a conversation he sit there & act as if I dont exist. He will only answer if its something to do with our children. He provides for anything for the family and now even does what used be my responsibility. I admitted I did something wrong and I apologised but he still doesnt understand. The problem now is even my first born daughter senses the tension and she is asking questions. I've done anything within my power that would help but I have failed. My problem is I dont know how long this will last. I love my husband with all my heart but now I feel like a nanny who has a chance to sleep in the boss's bed. Please help what should I do? This issue is giving me headache & I've just noticed am even loosing weight.
Whenever I involve people outside our marriage he always tell them theres nothing wrong between us. He even said to our imaam and told him maybe he doesnt have stories to tell me or just doesnt want to comment my stories. Our imaam said its hard for him to help cos my husband doesnt admit any problem. Guys i would really appreciate if you help me with what you think. Thanks in advance.
« Reply #1 on: Sep 20, 2012 08:46 PM »

Ask your husband what he wants?

Do your parents know this has happened?

What do you want to happen?

To be fair you knew your husband was insanely jealous and yet you persisted in associating with this childhood friend, you must have known your husband would flip out.

Here's what I'd do, I would ask husband what he wants from the marriage, I would tell my family what has occurred, I'd think long and hard about what I want from my life, I'd do istikhara, then I would go ahead and act according to that decision.

If you remain with your husband don't ever talk to another man again. And I'm not saying that as a right or wrong, it's a fact, don't do it if you want a harmonious married life, because your husband is suspicious and unreasonable.

Does your husband talk to or associate with other non mahram women?

« Reply #2 on: Sep 20, 2012 09:44 PM »


I think you should think about how you would feel if this happened to you. If you picked up the phone and this woman was all like "Oh yeah me and <your husband> are old childhood friends we talk and meet all the time and I know all about you and your personal problems etc". Wouldn't you feel hurt? A little jealous? Especially when you realize he deliberately hid this friendship from you all this time, even if it was innocent. Sorry to say most people would totally take your husband's side here, even if he's unreasonably jealous and what not. I'm sure he feels very betrayed and hurt by what happened. Maybe if you talk to him honestly and apologize you can start on a path to being back together.  Does knowing he'd be angry about an innocent friendship give you the right to hide things from him? Interesting marriage question maybe. When trust is lost though it's extremely difficult to get back and for some people they just can't bring themselves to trust the other person again. Something to reflect on maybe. Maybe he's thinking, how can he trust you again?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 20, 2012 09:47 PM »

I have tried asking him what he wants but as I have already said he doesnt want to talk & he just looks at me. My father died and my mum is very worried but she doesnt want to do anything. She and my mother-in-law believe he will cool down as time goes by buy as I've said it 6 good months now. His father was not there when he was growing up so he has no say in his life.
I want my marriage to be like it was before this incident. The problem is I dont know if it will be possible. I went to a boys and girls high school same with college. What happens when I meet classmates. I tell them "oh nice to see you but we cant talk whenever we meet cos my husband cant allow it" it seems awkward to me. He interact with female friends at work but says with me he made it clear before marriage so no excuse.
P.s. The guy was calling to tell me the wife is pregnant. He called cos he was so happy & thought a message will be delayed. He wanted to thank me for my help and was calling in the doctors office. I was the first person they called and they assumed my husband knew their story.
« Reply #4 on: Sep 20, 2012 10:02 PM »

Well if he wont talk at all, then I suggest you have a long hard think about what you want then and act accordingly.

I dont think he is justified at all, he is nasty and controlling, its one set of rules for him and another for you. It doesn't matter if he laid down these rules before marriage. In reality it is not possible to not interact with the opposite sex at all ever, unless he wants to bury you alive in your house.

You did know what his reaction would be which is why you hid it form him.

He is not justified in his behaviour or his demands, but you should have seen this scenario.

Now its down to you rteally.

Either put up with this behaviour for whatever time period your husband feels is adequate punishment..could be forever.

Or consider a life seperate from him.

I cant see it working any other way as he won't talk to even the Imam and neither of you have male authority figures in your lives.

For the record if my friend told me her husband behaved like this, altho I would think she was daft not envisioning this outcome, I would think her husband was a horrendous human being to live with.

« Reply #5 on: Sep 20, 2012 10:20 PM »

I know I made a mistake and I admit it. I am wrong and am not trying to justify anything. I've tried talking to him nicely, made him candle light dinner, ask him out but the thing is he doesnt want to talk. Telling me his feelings would be better as I would know where to start. He's been quite for 6 months now & what I dont know how many more. My sister has suggested maybe I leave the house for awhile but I see no reason for me to. When we have visitors around he acts as if everthing is ok but once they are gone its back to what it was.
« Reply #6 on: Sep 21, 2012 02:57 AM »


well, he is obviously very hurt and is keeping it all in.

If he is not talking to you while you are alone, but behaves normally infront of people, then he wants the appearance of normalcy and that is decent alhamdolellah.  this tells me that there is hope.

Do you love him?  Not for the sake of the kids, but him, do you love him personally? I am sure you do insha'Allah.

I will suggest this, if he would not talk to you, write him letters.  He will read them, and will probably continue his silence.  But you get a chance to get things off your chest.

Acknowledge his feelings. Express your love for him, your desire to resolve this and to move beyond it.  Don't explain what happened between that old friend and you.

Acknowledge what happened, but don't be apologetic. 

I don't know, do this for a while and don't talk to him. Don't start a conversation with him, since he can't bring himself to talk to you. 

Cook his favourite meals, take good care of yourself, the kids and the house.

If he wants to continue with this marriage, he will come around insha'Allah.

Make lots of prayers and consult a marriage counselor if he is open to it. 

May Allah give you and your husband sakeena.

take care.
« Reply #7 on: Sep 21, 2012 02:29 PM »

Walaikum salaam.
Thank you so much guys for your good suggestion. I am still hoping things will change for the better. Please remember me in your duas and I will always keep you updated if things change. More suggestions are also welcome.
« Reply #8 on: Sep 22, 2012 03:41 PM »

 sit and recite this verse from quran
Surah 64: Ayah 14;
O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

part of this verse is not about your situation but even then read it to him and ask him to think second part of ayah

'But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'

as you are striving to safe your relationship and i am pray you will Amen.

and leave rest on ALLAH and pray ALLAH first of alla for forgiveness and help.
« Reply #9 on: Sep 22, 2012 03:42 PM »

Talking about conceiving problem is extremely personal and a man must shy to talk such personal issue with a woman even he knows her from school,and a woman must shy to listen this problem from a man however he is old friend or close male relative.i wounder how he talked to you such personal problem , now only solution is to tell your hubby all details and never ever talk to a man for such personal things and if your hubby dislike you talking to some male then do not do this male do not do this only out of jealousy,a male knows another male as you females knows other females better.

tell him all story and so he understand and tell him you will respect his desire of not talking to some male person in future.

i can not say more but remember a male knows another male more than a woman will ever know,it is not jealousy or possessiveness or to control female.
« Reply #10 on: Sep 22, 2012 11:37 PM »

^ Agree to the above.

Also if the letters dont work for say three or so months. May be have your friend and his wife come to your place to thank you and your hubby, for 'your' help in making your friend's wife conceive.

Ask them to tell your hubby that your friend's wife approached you for help. A little lie wouldn't hurt if she didnt...

Basically you need to win his confidence back, as he must have been heart broken assuming that you wouldn't hide anything from him, ever.
« Reply #11 on: Sep 23, 2012 01:57 PM »

If he is a religious guy, memorize the quran in front of him, or at least read the quran out loud in front of him. Also, ask if you can pray with him together.

If that doesn't soften his heart, then you've got to see a counselor, or psychiatrist -- as there is something wrong with his brain chemistry.
« Reply #12 on: Sep 23, 2012 03:47 PM »

Please don't lie any more it will only serve to exacerbate the problem. He already thinks he can't trust you if you lie to cover up it will make things worse.

Pray, make duas, tell your imam and family whats going on and continue to ask for advice and make istikhara.

I frankly have very little patience for such behaviour personally, he has no right to keep you hanging in limbo whilst he punishes you indefinitely. This silent treatment has been going on for six months, which is far too long already. He's hardly the bastion of purity himself, he talks to women freely, so does he have ulterior filthy motives towards all women then.

I would give serious consideration to what I want from life and marriage as a whole.

He won't discuss this with you

He lies to imams and friends so outside intervention fails.

He's been behaving like this for SIX MONTHS already with no signs of ending it any time soon.

Does he even want to be in a healthy marriage at all?

What kind of message do you suppose your children are receiving from this behaviour? Your daughter will assume this is how to expect men to treat her and your sons will think this is the right way to treat women.

Find a Muslim counselling service and get counselling on your own as he wont participate, but you need to work out issues for yourself first I think.

Everyone makes mistakes, I would never ever agree to marry a man who told me he never wants me to speak to another man for the duration of our marriage, because frankly its not possible. I don't speak to men but equally I would not get hysterical and run away if a man wanted to speak to me. Men do make up 50% of the population its ridiculous to expect anyone to avoid half the world. AND I expect a spouse to trust that I will not be running off with the first male to cross my path, unless I give him good reason to doubt my chastity.

Also whoever was saying discussing fertility issues was far too intimate, actually a conversation could be something like,
Friend; 'I've been married for x years'
Anon sis; 'oh wow mashallah congratulations do you have children'
friend; 'No we are beginning to despair we don't know what to do'
Anon sis; 'My husband and I had similar, but we consulted x doc he was amazing, let me give you his number'

I've had similar discussions with people some whom I barely know, perhaps because they trust me and know I wont be spreading their business around and I might have sensible practical advice...doesn't mean I am having affairs or improper relationship with these people!

I have come across this so much, in Islamic marriages the wife is constantly berated and the husband no matter how outrageous and unreasonable his behaviour, is given a thousand excuses.

Give serious thought to living your life like this forever or taking steps to change you life. Your marriage is not going  to go to go back to what it was. Was he really so wonderful prior to this one incident and just suddenly switched into this unreasonable controlling person who appears to relish torturing his wife, who, to be fair has not actually done anything wrong.
« Reply #13 on: Sep 25, 2012 09:46 AM »

Wow 6 months! Unbelievable...

I don't have a different opinion - certainly you shouldn't have maintained close connections with the guy. But 6 months is too much.

I'm not sure what you can do. Letters are a good idea unless he's the kind that could use it against you in the future.

« Reply #14 on: Sep 26, 2012 04:56 AM »

as u mentioned that you told imam sahab but he refused to any help.

go again to Imam sahab and tell him all story and that you are sorry and want your normal life back so please in a Darrs of Quran or on Friday speech please deliver a speech that if full of about forgiveness ,and specially forgiveness in domestic affairs make it clean that ALLAH forgives and love to forgivers,if we forgive each other ALLAH forgive our sin too but if we do not forgive each other ALLAH respond us accordingly.
and request Imam Sahab that this can safe your marriage so deliver a well prepared speech, that is how Imam Sahab will teach him to be courageous to forgive himself and you also.

your effort to save this marriage will be appreciated by ALLAH because ALLAH do not like divorce among Hallah things.

'what is done can not be undone' so we have to let go what happened in past and move forward in a spirit not to repeat our mistakes ever again.

and if he does not forgive you he will not be forgiven for his mistakes too,he will lose his happy marital life here and ALLAH's forgiveness in dooms day and even in this world, we all do sins we all need forgiveness from ALLAH and people around us.

and all of your these efforts are being registered and recorded and ALLAH is looking your efforts to save your marital life your efforts for your hubby for your kids,i am sure ALLAH will appreciate your efforts because ALLAH does not like Fassad ,destruction of family life.

you did a mistake of not telling your hubby about that guy but it is not a gross mistake.

Imam sahab can do an effective job.

Prophet Mohamed may ALLAH peace be upon Him use this way to teach and guide the wrongdoers or if He wanted to teach  some Islamic value to His followers.He purposefully never point some wrongdoer by name ,that Mr x you doing the wrong thing, rather He used to say in a meeting where that person is present too that 'WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PEOPLE' that they are doing this or that wrong thing,that is how He teach them or guide them without embarrassing them.

Imam sahab speech can bring a positive outcome inshaALLAH.

if this effort of yours and Imam Sahab go in vain, even then rest assure that ALLAH is looking your positive efforts,ALLAH the forgiver the kind the merciful.

this world is not end ,not a place of result and reward,there will be a time when we will be rewarded on the bases of or deeds,good and bad, you did a wrong thing but you tried seriously, sincerely  to compensate it ,and that is all what matters for ALLAH.

I pray for you and for your hubby too may ALLAH make his heart kind and full of love for you ,give him courage to forgive you and most importantly to forgive himself Amen.
« Reply #15 on: Sep 26, 2012 04:56 AM »

 he could have said hurtful things and he could have think about divorce but he is silent that shows his behavior towards all what happened,do not listen to anyone just decide according to your situations ,your father died and if you have brothers their wife's will not let them take care of you for long time so in the end you will be all alone to face more cruel realities and selfish world.

if you financially sound and have some wealth then think about other ways but if this is not that case do not think anything but how to reconcile this issue.

patience will be a good way if you withstand his silence, for this you have to be patient then be patient,patience brings so many good things after some time,let him be silent maybe his behavior towards any situation dictating him to be silent,we all react to same situations differently and this difference of reaction based on so many psychological factors some are deeply rooted in past experiences.

So his behavior making him to respond this way namely being silent.
be patient as i said he could have taken other steps but his reaction is silence but nothing else like divorce or quarrels or aparting or shouting on you and kids,he choose to be silent and as i told you his silence is based on his past.
Extrovert or outgoing person react outrageously, shout, quarreling, beating ,divorce insulting,revenge etc but
Introvert person react like he is doing become silent or sad or depress or self harming in extreme cases and he can be punishing you by being silent this is too from introvert person.

ignore his silence behave in your daily life as u do but do read Quran and be with your ALLAH,all hearts are in control of ALLAH pray ALLAH ,ALLAH can turn his heart towards you and give him courage to forgive you and forgive himself too Amen.

what you think what things influence him most ,Quran, Imam lectures, Hadieths. whose influence he accept mostly some friend some relative etc find out and use the appropriate way to bring him towards a solution.

if things gets intensify do go to your mom for few weeks ,some times if we go out of  a situation and no longer be a part of that situation , this make  us think about it more freely more isolatedly.this will lessen the tension in his mind and make him think freely.

if you still doing that job quit that job if that old friend is still in that office.tell you hubby that you do not want to do a job and be a house wife if you have financial issue and both of you need a job then change that office and job.

you old friend did all this mistake he must not called you and if he listened your husband voice he must not talk and pretend that it is wrong call now if something serious happen with you he will quietly escape he will not look back after all he has a family, he will not stand with you, however he is the reason of all this havoc.

if it is your mistake to talk him, real responsibility is on him, why he was pretending to be so close to you and discussing so personal issues ,just to enjoy talks , i know one other man who nearly destroyed  a girls marital life by going so deep into her life and when her husband herd he thought of divorcing her ,now she asked if my husband divorce me will u marry me,he did not replied clearly and he was so much worried that if she gets divorce i have to marry her ,so he was praying i asked what is the worry he told me all situation i asked you caused all this distraction so you have the responsibility but he was fearful to take the divorced girl's responsibility,luckily girls husband decided not to divorce her and her marriage saved.
but if he divorced her my friend would never had married her i know it for sure,these men do this they enjoy talks and when there are  real consequences they escape and left the women behind alone to face cruel realities, you accept or not but truth is ,it is the women who face the worst, men always gets escape,but in this life only not in the dooms day they have to pay back,Allah will not forgive them for these deeds.
« Reply #16 on: Nov 25, 2012 04:55 PM »

Salaam alaikum everyone
I just wanted to update u on my situation. In early october my mother paid me a visit. Looking at my situation she asked my husband for permission to take me home with her for some days. Going to my mothers place I realised I was suffering a lot. I called my husband three days later telling him I've decided to stay at my mothers place untill he was ready to talk. After 3 to 4 wks he called to say 'please honey come back home the house is not the same without u' I was so excited. I called one of my friends to pick me up from mother place it was around 8 in the evening. He seemed surprised to see me saying he was thinking of picking me up the next day.
 Before going to bed he said he was sorry for treating me the way he did and he thought the best way was to not talk about the issue at all, and I agreed on a condition. I told him it wld be impossible for me to not talk to a man he said it was ok as long as I don't make them my best friends. Although I was back I was feeling like things were not ok. We were talking but there was a lot of tension between us. I was thinking things will work themselves after some time.
Last friday one of his friends invited us for dinner to celebrate his sister's passing of exams. There's aplayground at the place we went. Me my friend and the sister in law we went to the playground with the children. While there I realised I had forgotten my phone at the table so I returned to get it. As I was approaching I heard my husband telling the friend that he is just keeping me because of the children. He told the friend that he thinks if he “let me go” then his children will suffer. I went back without getting the phone & my daughter to go & get it. This really disturbed me that today he even asked what's bothering me. My question is should I ask him what I overhead? But if I don't how will I live knowing my husband love for me is gone & he is only keeping me cos he doesn't want he's children to suffer.
« Reply #17 on: Nov 25, 2012 07:43 PM »

Is it possible he's got a girlfriend/second wife?

Start putting money away into a rainy day fund, one that he has no idea about.

You're not going to remain married long, this man has someone else lined up, if he is telling friends how awful you are he is getting everyone on side, so when he divorces you or leaves for his new wife/girlfriend he can paint himself the martyr and say he left his cheating wife.

Do istikhara, ask Allah what you should do.

Tell your mother what you heard and ask her for advice and ask your imam for advice too.
« Reply #18 on: Nov 26, 2012 07:32 AM »

When I left home back to my house my mum wasn't happy with the "let's not talk about it". Now she has just said. She knew my marriage was over longer ago but she is my mother so she must support me. She knew how desperate I was to save my marriage. Now I've started thinking maybe my problem was just a contributing factor.
« Reply #19 on: Nov 26, 2012 09:52 AM »

I'm having trouble believing your husband has been the paragon of propriety and yours has been the only wrong doing.

I bet he finds fault in lots that you do, but you've brushed it aside, poor little him having to put up with awful awful you.

I really do think there is more to this than anything else.

I've been thro the divorce mill (you can prolly guess who I am from that if you're a regular on the forum). If your husband is going around telling people your short comings, you can bet your bottom dollar he is preparing the landscape for his departure and painting you as the villain in the marriage. Part of marriage is that you keep eachothers secrets and that you cover one anothers shortcomings. If you cannot trust him to be nice about you amongst his friends and family in your absence, there's not much left in your marriage.
In fact as a Muslim, we cover one another's sins and shortcomings, we do not speak badly of eachothers deeds and actions behind peoples backs whilst being all sweet to their face.

He is being really horrible.

I would start quietly setting money aside for your departure, keep a very close eye on household finances. do not sign anything that ties you into joint finances from this point onwards.
Quietly move your own papers and your children's papers to your mothers house (or somewhere safe), keep copies of bank statements etc, if he later says things about your joint finances you will have hard copies to back you up.

I would ask advice from your imam (if he's trustworthy) and ask for duas if he can't advise.

Your husband has no right to treat you like this, if he finds you intolerable he should divorce you or keep you in kindness, read surah talaq with translation, Allah tells you your rights.

Pray salat, pray tahajjud, ask for Allah's help. Recite Nuh (as) dua

فَدَعَا رَبَّهُ أَنِّي مَغْلُوبٌ فَانْتَصِرْ
Then he called on his Lord: "I am one overcome: do thou then help"

I've recited this a lot. Read Quran a lot in general.

And do istikhara before making any final decisions.

I am truly sorry you are going thro this. I wish I could take your pain away. You sound very much in love with your husband. This is his loss more than yours, altho he does not yet know it.
« Reply #20 on: Nov 27, 2012 03:28 AM »

sister i agree with all tahst said in the post above mine. You should take precautions. But perhaps there is another angel to it too. Perhaps you have been too good. Too giving. Too timid. Too ready to fall at his feet. Too easily made happy.
see he said he wants you back and there you were by evening! And he was good to you for a little while. He said "lets not talk about it" because he very well knows there is nothing to talk of in it. He again started making it tough for you because YOU ARE READY TO TOLERATE IT AND HE IS ENJOYING HIS POWER OVER YOU. Perhaps he is talking to his friends like that to justify his behaviour to himself. He is def, not a normal guy.
In your place I would pull myself back a little. Don't do it aggressively or too apparently. Just keep a pleasant demeneur on the outside but pay him less attention. Do all that he tells you to do but don't take much interest in him. If he talk reply politely but without interest. don't talk to him even about mundane things unless they are important. Don't tell him kids did this or that. Concentrate on yourself. Cook good food and look good as someone said above also. Do this for 7-8 days and update us on the change. And things turm around iA plz don't rush into his arms!
P.s: just in case what i said turns out to be wrong plz utilize this time along with other precautions to be very very close to your kids.It has to be very diff. in these stressful circumstances but plz try not to get angry at them, or scream or shout, be their best buddy. It will help you in the long run. also if you don't mind I want to know where you belong to . Your issue will have different significance in different cultures.
In my duas iA SmileySmiley
« Reply #21 on: Nov 27, 2012 03:30 AM »

and yes i forgot in the previous post....plz eat well sr. people (esp women) who don't eat well tend to be more irritable and people can always defeat you in an argument if they can easily irritate you. Eating well will keep you cool and you will be able to atke right decisions SmileySmiley
« Reply #22 on: Nov 27, 2012 09:11 AM »

Hmm Desi ppl always stay together even if they're miserable!! Why assume the husband wants to divorce her? Actually ALOT of couples end up staying together because of the kids!! Some aren't even miserable, they are ok with it...
« Reply #23 on: Nov 27, 2012 09:39 AM »

It's the fact the husband is telling friends he's only with her for the sake of the children.

Usually people (I can't speak for desi's per se as they surprisingly don't make up the main of my close friend circle), show a happy coupley face to the world, altho the marriage may be in turmoil behind closed doors.

Unusually this husband, altho reticent to discuss his issues with the imam or family elders who are seeking to help, is happy to rubbish his wife to his friends behind her back.

It is not healthy to remain married for the sake of the children, it is better to part and maintain cordial relations for the sake of the children, the parents marriage is the blue print for children's own later relationships. Hand on heart would any of us want our children to end up in the OP's situation?

It is not possible to live in an unhappy marriage indefinitely, it affects ones health, mental wellbeing and iman.

A person could live for another forty fifty years, dunno, is there anyone here who could live with a man who barely speaks to you, bad mouths you amongst his friends (so their wives will know too and pretty much every sister in your social circle), and only interacts with you when it suits him and his needs.

Love, affection and mutual respect are very important in a marriage.
« Reply #24 on: Nov 27, 2012 01:07 PM »

its very easy to suggest OP to end the marriage. But how can we ignore the fact that this woman LOVES her husband, not to mention the practical problems that will arise if she opts for divorce. Are the posters of this thread going to fight the custody battles for her, are they going to feed them and pay their school fees, or are they they going to play 'daddy' for them! I am a desi and I am absolutely proud of the fact that our women (and men too many a times) have the guts and patience to keep a useless marriage alive because that saves the children from the trauma of parent's broken marriage the out comes of which non-desis are very well aware of. It also saves the additional complication of step parents in their lives. divorce is a provision from Allah and it must be used when ever required. It is def. required in a number of cases but you wear the swim jackets and jump off the ship when its clearly sinking and not when it jerks or tremors a little. The swim to safe shore is not pleasant task after all.
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