// Moral dilemma
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Nature
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« on: Jan 24, 2013 02:53 AM »


As salamu alaikum,

I belong to the Student Council at my school - I joined it after lengthy elections because I was eager to do good work as I had seen others doing on the council, as our council is not about organizing school parties or whatever, rather its for the students to work and organize things for purposes such as discussing the issue of international or hurtful stereotypes on campus, or getting the students together to overcome any problems in student-faculty relations, or making a space for students to discuss what we may not breach in normal conversations, eg wealth disparity on campus. Ours is a small school so these things are really meaningful to work with.

Unfortunately one of the things that the rest of the Council wants to choose as a topic for one of these discussions (after I joined as a new member) is sexuality. Of course I want nothing to do with this, and I know that i can easily politely decline moderating or attending the discussion.

However this discussion may be planned/scheduled during our Council meetings - I'm not sure how to deal with this. Do I simply stay silent and keep out of it, or should I rather simply decline attending the meeting if I know that this topic will be discussed in the future? The only reason I sat through it today was because it was brought up as a surprise item, rather than being on the agenda.

Or is it wrong of me to even belong to the body that organizes this?
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 24, 2013 06:02 AM »

Once I was in a group discussion at AIESEC and the topic was "should gay marriages be legalised?" and I spoke against it. I didn't bring up religion or anything, I only tried to explain it rationally and as much as I thought I would be cornered, surprisingly, they bought it entirely. I also spoke about it at an oratory club and they bought it too. So, if you can explain why you hold a certain position, you'll be alright inshallah. I never breached the topic with non muslims except when I was forced to, like in the above situations, and I don't think I will because being muslim and speaking against homosexuality from a religious angle will be equated to being from the taliban and I don't want the police knocking at my door. The rational approach will work inshallah and maybe after they understand why you're against it you can tell them about the religious perspective as well. Use hikmah Wink
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 24, 2013 09:50 AM »

I think silence is acceptance.
And I don't think anyone needs to apologise for being Muslim.
So tell them the Islamic verdict on the issue.
You can also tell them what the Bible says on the issue:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
Nature
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 24, 2013 04:40 PM »

Once I was in a group discussion at AIESEC and the topic was "should gay marriages be legalised?" and I spoke against it. I didn't bring up religion or anything, I only tried to explain it rationally and as much as I thought I would be cornered, surprisingly, they bought it entirely. I also spoke about it at an oratory club and they bought it too. So, if you can explain why you hold a certain position, you'll be alright inshallah. I never breached the topic with non muslims except when I was forced to, like in the above situations, and I don't think I will because being muslim and speaking against homosexuality from a religious angle will be equated to being from the taliban and I don't want the police knocking at my door. The rational approach will work inshallah and maybe after they understand why you're against it you can tell them about the religious perspective as well. Use hikmah Wink

Thanks akhan, I have had to say before that I simply cannot accept this nor condone it because it is forbidden in my religion, as are premarital or extramarital relationships - this was when a friend of mine brought up the topic, and people don't have a problem with that - I prefer not to get into arguments because I know that I will be in the overwhelming minority (it's a liberal school so gay rights are the norm rather than the exception) and I don't want to misrepresent the teachings of Islam through my own lack of knowledge or adeptness at religious debate. I'm not at all apologizing for Islam, rather I'm standing up for our point of view without compromise. I'll probably do the same if this comes up again
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2013 05:50 PM »

The "I don't agree coz it's forbidden in my religion" pill doesn't go down people's throat in my part of the world(ironically, I think if I say it's not acceptable culturally, people may agree). That is what has shaped my approach to the subject. But, by all means,  whatever works for you, go for it.
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2013 07:05 PM »

Well isn't that the only true reason?
Would you still be against Homosexuality if it was Hallal?
If not, every other reason you give would be a lie.
And lying isn't dawa. Lying is lying.

You know when people say stuff like "You shouldn't do that disgusting stuff, if you do you will die of aids", I think that makes us look worse than if we would have just said "Islam and every other reason that mentions it forbids it".
You are more likely to convince the God believers amongst them with that sort of honesty.

You may ask, what of the Non-God-believers?
Well if they don't even believe in Allah, what difference does it make who they have sex with?
If you convince one of them to be straight but not to Believe in Allah would it make any difference to his final destination after he dies?

What Muslims need to understand is who to talk to about aqeeda and who to talk to about Fiqh.

You talk to Muslims about why they should follow the rules of Islam.
If there was a Muslim who liked having sex with men, you will benefit him by convincing him not to.
That is dawa.

If there was a non Muslim that liked having sex with men. It would make no difference to him if you convince him not to using the health benefits of being straight.
Instead you would benefit him in convincing him that Islam is the truth.
And after that you can explain to him that it is harram for him to have sex with men.

This same argument applies to any issue. No point in convincing Kaffir of the health benefits of praying, fasting wearing hijab or not eating pork. If they did all that without believing in Allah it would make no difference to them.
So when they ask you about Islamic rules you follow. Tell them you follow it because Allah tells you to. And if they need more explain to them why you believe in Allah and why you believe the Quran is the word of Allah.
And if you can't explain to some that Allah exists and the Quran is the word of Allah, it is about time you learnt all that for yourself.
Cheesy
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 25, 2013 01:40 AM »

welcome back Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 27, 2013 11:50 AM »


This same argument applies to any issue. No point in convincing Kaffir of the health benefits of praying, fasting wearing hijab or not eating pork. If they did all that without believing in Allah it would make no difference to them.


It will make no difference to them of course but it will make a tremendous difference on the society and the muslims they relate with. Evil practices are contagious. We stay with the unbelievers. They teach our children in schools. We befriend them. Any act they do gradually spread within our community.

And be informed, there are many converts who accepted Islam after seeing the health and social wisdom in of Islamic law.

"Whoever rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break." Q 2:256"
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 27, 2013 05:21 PM »

Nope, they convert to Islam because they believe it is the truth.
You convince a Hindu not to eat pork, and he becomes a Hindu that doesn't eat pork.
You convince a Atheist to wear Niqab, they will be a atheist with her face covered.

But yes, you can use Islamic laws to convince someone that Islam is the truth.
But the issue here is whether to tell guys not to have sex with other guys because Allah says not to, or use some strange argument.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 28, 2013 02:31 AM »

What on earth. I meant for this topic to be a peaceful way of advice being given, not an inappropriate discussion about sex. Islamicsocks, the brothers arguments are valid ones - many people have been convinced of Islam's truth through the wisdom of its teachings, and I am personally seeing, mashallah, how my own friends vision of Islam is turning to one of respect and perhaps eventual acceptance, through simply seeing the rational of what I do for God.

It would be nice if this topic was locked now.
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 28, 2013 08:04 AM »

This thread is now closed.
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 28, 2013 01:02 PM »

Hi, Nature -

Certainly you should not participate in anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Maybe you can make a final decision about participating in the sexuality discussion after the forum has covered some of the other topics? Just to get an idea about how people comport themselves and how well the discussions are moderated.

A topic like "sexuality" is like "politics" -- it's such a general term that it could be about anything - or nothing.

Whatever you choose to do, good luck!
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