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Iftikhar
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« on: Feb 09, 2013 09:50 PM »


Muslim Academies
Academies bill will enable a radical overhaul of England's schools, giving every school the chance to convert to an academy and giving parents the right to create free schools outside the control of LAs.The new schools will drive up standards and the education would be in accordance with the needs and demands of the parents. It will help native Brits, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other minorities to set up their own schools for the education of their children. It is nothing to do with integration or segregation. Segregation already exists in British schoolings, it is not going to widen. President Obama supports free schools in America because they have benefitted the least well off the most. Educating children is the priority.

It is wrong to assert that a small unrepresentative group of Muslim activists tried to Islamises a state primary school in Woking. The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to state funded Muslim schools. They are not extremists who want to change of ethos of those schools where Muslim children are in majority. It is the democratic right of every Muslim parent to see that their children receive balanced education, so that when their children grow up, they do not find themselves cut off from their cultural roots and linguistic skills. It is a question of common sense, humanity and reason that bilingual Muslim children must be educated in state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. The whole world believes that people who speak more than one language is a vital economic asset. Pupils who speak more than one language do not cause difficulties. It is the politicians and monolingual teachers who are the problems for bilingual pupils. Muslim school will help to cultivate the child into a healthy, fully flourishing individual with a passion for learning.  There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies.

Muslim schools are not only faith schools; they are more or less bilingual schools. Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. State schools with monolingual teachers do not teach Standard English to Migrant children. Bilingual Muslim children learn English in the playgrounds and in the streets. They speak street language with its own grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. The teachers let them speak the same accent in the classroom. They have no courage to stop them or correct them. This is one of the main reasons why one third of children have difficulties with reading when they leave primary schools.  Majority of such children are Muslims. In other European countries and in the sub-continent argot and slang are not allowed into the classroom. In Britain primary school teachers do not feel that it’s their role to interfere with self-expression in any shape or form. They encourage children to read poems and stories written in ethnic dialects.

Muslim faith schools are more or less bilingual schools. Priority will be given to the teaching of Standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages. All Muslim children will learn and be well versed in Standard English and Quranic Arabic and at the same time they will learn and be well versed in one of the community language to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Majority of children will learn Urdu language because it is a lingua franca of the migrants from the sub-continent. And majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan and their national language is Urdu.
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« Reply #1 on: Feb 13, 2013 01:09 PM »

I hate mixing Islam with race. It is disgusting.
You can make religion based school. Jewish and Christian schools have existed here for a very long time.
Or you can make a Ethnicity based school French and other schools have existed here for a very long time.
What you can't do is mix the two.
If you make an Islamic school, it should be Islamic. So Arabic should be its second language as Arabic is the language of Islam.
When you start bringing in Urdu in to it, others will demand Bangladeshi, Turkish, Somalian and others. All this will weaken the children's education and also weaken our position in demanding the school.
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« Reply #2 on: Feb 13, 2013 10:24 PM »

A man is a product of his/her culture, language and faith.

All Muslim children must learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity.

Arabic is a religious language and every Muslim child must learn Arabic as a Quranic language to recite and understand the Holy Quran. At the same time all Muslim children must learn Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural heritage and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. There is a positive co-relation between culture and language, if Muslim children become notoriously monolingual Btoits than they are going to adopt all the evils of English society. Over 90% of british Muslims are from the sub-continent and Urdu is a lingua-francia of the Muslims from the sub-continent.
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 14, 2013 07:17 PM »

learning Arabic and English is not monolingual. If you had spent more time learning English and less learning Urdu maybe you would know that?
If you had spent more time learning Arabic and less learning Urdu you would know that the benefits of knowing Arabic is not limited to the ability to read and understand the Quran.
And when you say they must learn Urdu to keep in touch with their culture, literature and poetry. Whose culture, literature and poetry are you talking about?
Yours!
Why should everyone be forced to learn your language, culture and literature?
If people want to send their children to a Islamic school they do so because they like the Islamic religion. Not because they like Urdu.
I hate Urdu!
It is a rubbish language.
It isn't even a real language. It is just Hindi, relabeled so people like you can feel good about speaking the language of the idol worshipers.
You state that you are scared that Muslim children being able to speak English well will result in them picking up the practices of Christian England. Well, I would prefer that than them being able to speak Urdu allowing them to understand all those Bollywood films staring Idol worshipers.
Urdu does not allow people to understand the Quran and Sunnah, it allows people to watch Bolloywood films. Because Urdu is Hindi.
If you want to make a school to teach the language and culture of your Hindu ancestry, go ahead, but just keep Islam out of it.
Call it a Urdu School, or a Indo-Pak cultural school. Any name you want, just keep Islam out of your nationalism.
If you want an Islamic school, it has to be open to all Muslim children and treat them all of what ever colour whether minority or majority as equals.
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 14, 2013 09:43 PM »

learning Arabic and English is not monolingual. If you had spent more time learning English and less learning Urdu maybe you would know that?
If you had spent more time learning Arabic and less learning Urdu you would know that the benefits of knowing Arabic is not limited to the ability to read and understand the Quran.
And when you say they must learn Urdu to keep in touch with their culture, literature and poetry. Whose culture, literature and poetry are you talking about?
Yours!
Why should everyone be forced to learn your language, culture and literature?
If people want to send their children to a Islamic school they do so because they like the Islamic religion. Not because they like Urdu.
I hate Urdu!
It is a rubbish language.
It isn't even a real language. It is just Hindi, relabeled so people like you can feel good about speaking the language of the idol worshipers.
You state that you are scared that Muslim children being able to speak English well will result in them picking up the practices of Christian England. Well, I would prefer that than them being able to speak Urdu allowing them to understand all those Bollywood films staring Idol worshipers.
Urdu does not allow people to understand the Quran and Sunnah, it allows people to watch Bolloywood films. Because Urdu is Hindi.
If you want to make a school to teach the language and culture of your Hindu ancestry, go ahead, but just keep Islam out of it.
Call it a Urdu School, or a Indo-Pak cultural school. Any name you want, just keep Islam out of your nationalism.
If you want an Islamic school, it has to be open to all Muslim children and treat them all of what ever colour whether minority or majority as equals.


Since when is it allowed on this board to insult someone's English? Brother islamicsocks, please be extremely careful of what you say and try to be more polite.

It seems that your bias against Urdu is shaping your replies - nowhere did our brother say that learning Arabic was not beneficial, in fact he recommended it! He simply said that learning the language of the community or of one's heritage is good so as to preserve it, no matter where you're from - it's not just Urdu.

Also, why hate Urdu because it's related to Hindi? There's no such thing as a 'language of idol worshippers', if a Muslim wants to speak Hindi that's fine! Arabia was a land of polytheism before Islam, does that mean that Arabic is a language of idol worshippers??
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 14, 2013 10:16 PM »

Every child should be able to speak his/her mother tongue (and or) fathers native language as well as the language of the country in which they reside and Arabic.

The ability to speak the families native language keeps family ties strong.

When are you moving on to the evils of dal Moderatesufi?

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 14, 2013 10:30 PM »

Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to learn Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural heritage and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.
 
A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. he/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brits. British schooling has been forcing them to become notoriously monolingual Brits. It is a fact that British schooling is the home of institutional racism and British teachers are chicken racist. It is a crime against humanity to deprive a child form his/her mother tongue. Arabic is a religious language and all Muslims must learn and be well versed in Arabic to recite and understand the Holy Quran.Ed is very proud of his comprehensive school because students were speaking 60 languages. After leaving school, all those who spoke different languages, could only speak English because there is no arrangement for them to learn their own languages at school. Even teachers discouraged them to speak their language in school. British schooling regards bilingualism as a problem and not an asset. Sadiq was the product of British schooling. He is very proud that he is unable to speak, read and write Urdu language. I do not blame him. It is the fault of the school.
 
Legally, the state has an obligation to respect the rights of parents to ensure that 'education and teaching(of their children) is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.'
The schools must satisfy the spiritual, moral, social,and cultural needs of Muslim pupils. State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers are not in a position to satisfy their needs and demands. Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental period' otherwise, they would be lost in the Western JUNGLE.There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. At higher level of education, a Muslim teacher is not a priority.

There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies.
IA
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 18, 2013 09:19 AM »

Nature,
Do you know why I didn't respond to you right away?
I wanted you to think about what you said first?
I sort of thought you would realise the mistakes you made and edited what you wrote yourself.

I was responding to Iftikhar saying:
" if Muslim children become notoriously monolingual Btoits than they are going to adopt all the evils of English society."

And you tell me to:

"please be extremely careful of what you say and try to be more polite. "
Wow!
"It seems that your bias against Urdu is shaping your replies"
What bias is clouding your judgement then?
I think you better read what he wrote again if you can't see how Arabic was being undervalued.

Remember we are talking about an Islamic school here. We are not talking about Hindi speakers teaching their own children Hindu while calling it Urdu.
We are talking about Muslim kids being sent to a Muslim school and being taught a language they have no connection to.
We are talking about white kids, black kids, Turks and every other race. So that is what I am saying, if it is an Islamic school, it is racism to impose Urdu on all of those children.

Fozia
Is Urdu the mother tongue of the white child of white converts to Islam?
Should it be?
When white parents send their kids to Islamic maderas do they do so to make their kids Islamic or Indian?
Mothers can teach their children what ever tongue they want.
Islamic schools should teach children Islam.
When white Christians convert to Islam they do so because they reject Christianity  not because they reject being white British.
Remember this is the attitude behind imposing Urdu on non-Urdu speaking Muslim children in Muslim schools:

" if Muslim children become notoriously monolingual Btoits than they are going to adopt all the evils of English society."

Do you really think that is a welcoming attitude to the Muslim children of white English children?
That their society is evil?
You know, I left responding to a while because I would have thought you would have thought about the exchange between me and Iftikar and would have disagreed with what he said too.
You have proved me wrong.
It isn't only whites with shaven heads that think their culture, language and way of life is superior to all others and should be imposed on all others.

And that is what I see the imposition of Urdu and Indo-Pak culture on Muslims who have no connection with that culture and place.
I was being satirical when I was attacking it. It was my parody on what Iftika said about English culture. But I think that went over your heads.
My attacks on Indian food, dress language and culture as being remnants of Hinduism is an attack on the attitude of a lot of Muslims from the Indian sub-content that their own way of life and Hindu heritage is more Islamic than everyone else's.
That Urdu is more Islamic than English. That it should be taught to children of ALL heritages in Islamic schools. How do you think that would make Black, white, Turkish, Somalian and all other none Hindi speaking children feel?
It is racism, and if you can't see it, I feel very sorry for you.


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« Reply #8 on: Feb 18, 2013 12:59 PM »

I can't believe I agree with you moderatesufi, even if it is a tiny bit. Some aspects of Indian culture have seeped into Indian Muslims' way of practicing Islam. But, regardless, it is not justified to attack Urdu left, right and centre.

When are you moving on to the evils of dal Moderatesufi?
Eagerly looking forward to that debate Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: Feb 18, 2013 01:54 PM »

By Urdu, you mean Hindi written in a Persian script.


And what I mean by the attack, is what is so special about Urdu?
What makes it so highly prised and so holy that it needs to be taught in Madrasas and Mosques.
You know things are actually worse than what Iftikhar is calling for. He is calling for Urdu to be taught along with Arabic. But in most cases Urdu is being taught instead of Arabic in Muslim Schools and Madarasas.
You can say Arabic has been replaced by it.

Some say it is taught for cultural reasons. But if so it belongs to cultural centres, not Musjids, Madrasas and Muslim Schools.
If you bring one culture and raise it above all other cultures in a religious place, you remove the universality of religion.
Islam becomes the religion of a race, and not of everyone.
If Islamic schools are needed to build an Islamic charactor. Then the charactor of the School must be Islamic. And Islam is bigger than Hindi speakers.
It was stated that most Muslims in the UK are from the Indian sub-contentant as a reason why Muslims schools should teach Urdu. But why? How is that a reason?
We are told that if people come to the UK they must learn to speak English and accept the ways of the white-man. But when you say that are you telling white converts if they come to Islam their children must learn Urdu and accept the ways of the brown man?
Are you pretending to be the native culture of Islam in this country and telling all other immigrants that if you want to come to the UK you have to speak urdu to accesss Islamic services such as Musjids, Madrasas and Muslim Schools?
And why should Urdu(Hindi by another script) be the language of Muslims from the Indian subcontinant?
Who says?
Did Allah say in the Quran?
Most Muslims here may be from the Indian Subcontinant but few are Urdu speakers. There are many more Punjabi, Bangladeshi and Guagrati speakers, and there are many other speakers such as Patans and tamils.
If it is about conecting with culture, well it isn't "their culture" and "their language" for the vast majority.
The teaching of Urdu in Madrasa and Musjids and Muslim Schools is just a Bidha that stands in the way of the teaching of Arabic.
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 18, 2013 10:13 PM »

Bilingualism is not a problem, it is an asset. As so many pupils in UK have English as a second language or alternative language. We should be celebrating the fact that we have such a diverse language culture in our schools. Indeed, we should try to encourage some of our monolingual native pupils to join in the learning of a community language. Five of the languages that are gaining in popularity are Arabic, Chinese, Portuguese, Russian and Urdu. The future for languages in the United Kingdom is very bright, if we abandon the notion that we have to stick rigidly to French and German.

Welcome to a brave new world in which pupils learn Urdu in all schools right from Nursery level. Bilingual Muslim teachers should be appointed in all schools. It is spoken and understood by nearly four million British Asian. It is a common language from Kabul to Burma. Lord Hasting was appointed the first Governor General of Bengal because he was well versed in Farsi and Urdu. It is a lingua franca in all inner cities where Asians are in majority. British education system has never taken keen interest in the teaching and learning of Urdu and majority of British born Muslim children could not learn to read and write. Credit goes to the Imams from the sub-continent who use Urdu in their Masajid and keep the Urdu language alive. But the British establishments with the help of the so called leaders are forcing Masajid to use English instead of Urdu. Indian and Pakistani films are being shown every where. There are nearly a dozen TVs Channels and radio stations broadcasting in Urdu/Hindi for 24 hours, entertaining Asians through out Western Europe. BBC has been requested to set up a TV Channel in Urdu/Hindi. Musical concerts are being arranged all over the country and top singers from the Sub-continent sing songs for the entertainment of the Public.

It is crucial for the Muslim children from the sub-continent to learn Urdu to keep in touch with their cultural roots. Most of Islamic literature and poetry is in Urdu and not in any other Indian Languages. Therefore, in my opinion, both Muslim parents and schools must teach Urdu so that the children can enjoy the beauty of Urdu literature and poetry. I would like to see even native children learning Urdu and not French so that they can learn to respect and understand British Muslim community through Urdu literature and poetry. The Independent news paper also asks for the teaching of Urdu instead of French in British schools for better race relations through a language. 
IA
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« Reply #11 on: Feb 19, 2013 06:56 AM »

Arabic + English = Bilingualism

Why are you finding that so hard to comprehend?

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« Reply #12 on: Feb 19, 2013 10:23 AM »

Nowhere in my post did I say Urdu was the mother tongue of every Muslim child.

Most reverts have married either a spouse of Indian/Bangladeshi/Turkish etc origin so children from their rleationship will have a native tongue which is not Arabic.

Once children begin school they forget their mother tongue, the Chinese get round this by sending their children to Chinese school on Saturdays.

I reckon we need similar although our children already spend every spare minute attending hifdh classes, Quran recitation classes and Arabic classes and have longer school hours than the regular state schools. So cant see how that would be managed.

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #13 on: Feb 19, 2013 06:56 PM »

Fozia we are talking about Urdu being taught in Islamic Schools.

People who do not have a problem with Urdu being taught to all children in Islamic Schools need to be reminded that Urdu is not the native language of each and every Muslim Child.

I don't think you need to worry at all about the access of children to Urdu. teaching Urdu in Musjids, Madarasa and Muslim schools is a lot more common than teaching of Arabic. I think it is because a lot of people are more connected to the race than their religion.

Be honest how many Muslim children do you know who are fluent enough in their Arabic to understand Quran and Sunnah as compared to how many are fluent enough in their Urdu to understand the sexually explicit lyrics of Bollywood films?

We do not need to learn from the Chinese about ways to teach our kids Urdu and preserving our Desi culture, but I am sure we can learn something from them about teaching our children Arabic and preserving our Islamic culture.
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« Reply #14 on: Feb 19, 2013 10:10 PM »

I actually no exactly no children who speak Urdu fluently even tho it's their mother tongue.

I know an entire school of children who are at various stages of Arabic as a second language.

Mother tongues are very important to learn and maintain and pass on to younger generations. Amazingly children can lean more than one additional language. I expect my children to speak English, Urdu, Arabic and at least one other European language. Languages are an asset.



And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #15 on: Feb 19, 2013 10:35 PM »

I would say mother tongues are only important to people who hold the kufr concept of nationalism and racism.
To the rest of us, a mother tongue is about as significant as any other tongue.

I am so glad you know no children who are fluent in Urdu, may Allah preserve them from the evils of Bollywood.

I am also glad you know an entire school of children at various stages of Arabic. If this continues Arabic will become the unifying factor among Muslim children all over the world, just as Urdu/Hindi is currently used by people in the subcontinant to talk to each other.

This way brothers wont be able to use language to justify racism when it comes to marriage.
They wont be able to say they can't marry a Somalian because she wont be able to speak to his Pakistani grandmother. Because Everyone speaks Arabic.

Muslims schools, Madrasa and Musjids in the UK should only use English and Arabic. To use any other language is to destroy Muslim unity.
People who want to learn any other language can do so at any other location.
But places of religion can never ever be allowed to favour one comunity over others.
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« Reply #16 on: Feb 19, 2013 11:04 PM »

Mother tongues do not cause division within Islam.

If that we're the case only Arabic would be allowed to be spoken.

Of course people should speak their mother tongues, mainly because it keeps family bonds strong & strong family bonds is an Islamic requirement.

Your utterly xenophobic argument is most definitely not based in Islamic teaching.

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 19, 2013 11:12 PM »

If you do not want your children to learn Urdu, who is forcing you to do so. Yusuf Islam wife is Pakistani but her children do not speak, read and write Urdu. His school only teaches Arabic as a second language. He is not interested in teaching Urdu and other community languages. Majority of Muslim schools teach Urdu because majority of children are from Pakistan.
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 19, 2013 11:27 PM »

Fozia
"Mother tongues do not cause division within Islam."

That is only the case when people view their mother tongues as an incidental aspect about themselves. And regard it with as much significant as their blood type.

The minute they feel proud of it, or feel a bond with others with the same "mother tongue", then that is nationalism and that is racism so that is completely Harram and kufr.

Remember, the context that I am talking about it is the context of Muslim children having to study it in Islamic schools. The context isn't one of a child talking to his great grand mother in some long forgoten villiage dialect.

Iftikhar
The difference between his school and what you propose is his school is Islamic while what you propose is nationalist.
You want to make a school for Pakistani children. Well call it that, and keep Islam out of it.
The only word I will have for it though is racist.
It is racist attitudes like that that stop people from converting to Islam.
I know people, white converts and Born Muslims from Muslim African country whose children have been forced out of Muslim schools because of attitudes like yours.
People do not have to be white with skinheads and Nazi tatoos to be racist.
 
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 20, 2013 01:45 AM »

mmmm lot of pent up anger going on here!!! urdu and hindi are 2 similar but different languages and it does not follow that because you learn urdu you are only doing so out of some desire to watch or listen to bollywood stuff...... urdu and indeed hindi were both around waaaay before this was around. You cannot blame a language for the items that are portrayed in said language... another more helpful thing well for me anyway is that when travelling especially to middle east or saudi though my Arabic is not so good nearly everyone there speaks urdu or understands it better than my broken Arabic... Although i am not proud of the fact that my Arabic is not better i am extremely grateful that there is another language that i can use that is understood
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 20, 2013 02:43 AM »

Same language, different script.
If you write Hindi in a persian script you will call it Urdu. And if you write Urdu in a Hindi script you will call it Hindi.

I am sure you would have put more effort in to your Arabic if you didn't have that other language that you can understand.
And I am sure you would have learnt much more Arabic in your travels if you talked to Arabs in Arabic while there instead of other desi types in a Desi language.

And if you were not a Desi but a Nigerian or a Turk I am sure you would have been able to use your native language to talk to others of your race who had gone to the middle east.

Which brings me to my point. It is racist to place Urdu as a second language in UK Islamic schools. Because not all UK Muslim children are desi. Placing Urdu above Turkish, Somali or Albanian racist against Turks, Somalians and Albanians.
Arabic is the Language of Islam and English is the language of the country.

Comments like this:
"If you do not want your children to learn Urdu, who is forcing you to do so"
Are racist. It is code to say this school is a Desi school, this Mosque is a Desi Mosque, this madrasa is a desi Madrasa. If you don't like it go else where.
I can't see how that is any different to a White Nazi saying "this country is a white christian country if you don't like it go else where".

Iftkar
You said Urdu should be taught because Pakistanis are the majority?
So if a time will come when Somalians number more than Pakistanis at your school. Will you stop teaching Urdu and start teaching Somalian to all the children including the Pakistani ones?
Our local Islamic school used to be almost completely Desi. Now it is almost completely Somalian. The area doesn't have many Somalians but they seem to be more into Islamic schools than desi types. So if it happens here it can happen where you are.
What will you do?
Would you be happy with your children forgeting Urdu and learning Somalian? How about your children marrying Somalians? I had Somalian friends in college who tried to get me to marry their sisters. If it happened to me your kids could be next?
Would you be as OK with your own children becoming Somalian if you want them to go to your Islamic school as you are with other peoples children becoming Desi to go to your Islamic school?

All Urdu supporters should ask themselves this question?
How would you feel if it was the other way?

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« Reply #21 on: Feb 20, 2013 06:08 AM »

 salam

Salam all,

I think that this argument is becoming a little bit redundant.

From what I understand. Islamicsocks, you say that Urdu should not be taught as an "Islamic language" in schools to those who have nothing to do with it, and we should not mix up Urdu culture with Islam. That makes sense to me, and I understand it and agree - Islam is not about one language or culture.

I also understand brother Iftikkhar's point of view - where he says that trilingualism is the way to go. One should learn English for usefulness as one lives in an English speaking community, Arabic for deen, and then a third 'mother tongue' in order to maintain ties of community (wherever you are in the world - if you're Spanish learn Spanish, if you're Mauritian learn French, if you're Turkish learn Turkish, etc). It's not about saying Urdu is better than any other language - but most Muslims in the UK are Pakistani or Indian, and Iftikkhar reasons that offering Urdu at an Islamic school helps maintain community ties.

Liking your language or being proud of it is not wrong - what is wrong is thinking that it is better than any other, and that speaking it somehow elevates you above the rest of mankind. The same goes for nationalism. Liking your homeland and being proud of it is not wrong - the Prophet peace be upon him was known to love Makkah because it was his homeland. What is wrong is allowing it to divide between you and make you think that people from one place are better than people from another place - this is haram. We do not learn Arabic to the exclusion of all else - the Prophet's Sahaba were known to speak different languages, and were encouraged by him to learn languages of use to them.

Allah Subhanahu wa ta3ala says in the Quran tha mankind were deliberately created in different nations - had He wished we could have all spoken one language and had one culture. However look at the beauty of Allah's signs - is it not amazing to see how Muslims are joined together as brothers and sisters under God, worshipping Him Alone, loving one another for his sake,in all their different languages and backgrounds?  Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 20, 2013 01:09 PM »

The fact that I understand his point of view is why I see it as so dangerous and destructive to the Ummah and Islam.
What I said had little to do with Urdu itself and more to do with the reason why people want to teach it in Islamic schools.
Far from being redundant this argument is about to start.

My entire point was to attack Nationalism within the Ummah, or how I prefer to call it, Racism.
If the objective of teaching Urdu wasn't connected to racial superiority, nationalism and racism, and it did not lead to some members of the ummah separating themselves from others I wouldn't have had a problem with it at all.
I am glad you defended Nationalism (Racism), it was the reply I was waiting for. Because If I had said it with out someone stating it before me I would have been accused of slander.

The reason why I state brother Iftikar is relegating and its importance is because I understand it and its reasons just as Nature does. But she agree with it and I disagree with it because I am not a nationalist. And I believe Nationalism is completely kufr. Because the Muslim Ummah is one Ummah, one nation and any attempt to split it in to different nations is an attempt to destroy the Muslim Ummah. And keep it divided. It is the means that was used to destroy the Khilafah and it is the means that is being used to stop its reestablishment.

Why?
The reason for Arabic isn't just about reading the books of our deen. If you consider the Muslim Ummah as one Ummah. It is also "maintain ties of community (wherever you are in the world ". The reason you gave for learning Urdu.
You need to ask yourself whether you truly believe all Muslims are your community. Because what you say about the need for learning Urdu, the need for people whose mother language is Bangladeshi, Punjabi and Gujarati to learn Urdu to maintain ties to their community leads me to believe you consider people from the Indian subcontinent as one community differant from the rest of the Ummah. That is why what you say is so dangerous and so destructive to Islam.


What you said about the Prophet pbh is a lie invented by the nationalists to justify their racism. His reason for loving Makkah was his(pbh) love for Allah. His love for the Kabbah inside it. His love for the Prophets as Ismial and Ibrahim who built the Kabbah. His love for Makkah is for the same reason each and every Muslim of whatever race or land loves Makkah.

The reason why I like Islamic schools is the same reason why Urdu can not be taught inside them.
Islamic schools should have the purpose of uniting the Ummah. They should have Muslim children of all races, languages and backgrounds. So bonds within the Ummah will be bonds of religion.
If they are dedicated to Desi culture they do the opposite of that. They divide the Ummah.


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« Reply #23 on: Feb 26, 2013 11:34 AM »

You know two arguments that are often used here to justify teaching of Urdu in Islamic schools are completely invalid.


"Mother tongues are very important to learn and maintain and pass on to younger generations."

Statements such as this one are completely invalid because the Mother tongues amongst UK Muslims are Punjabi and Bangladeshi.
There may even be more Turkish speakers than Urdu speakers but I don't hear any one here calling for Turkish to be taught to their own children if they send them to Islamic Schools.

The other factor is being able to speak to ones own family.
People do not need lessons to be able to speak to their own family. And when they do they do not do so in Urdu. They do so in their own languages and dialects.


Be honest, the true reason for teaching Urdu in Islamic schools in the UK is a lot of people from the Indian Subcontinent think they are better than everyone else.
When you talk about keeping in touch with Indian poetry and culture you mean it is better than other Islamic cultures, so should be given a higher position than say Turkish or Somalian poetry or culture.

When you say it should be taught so the Bangladeshis, Punjabi and Gujaratis can unite behind it and speak to each other throughout the world, you are calling for Indo/Paks to have an exclusive relationship and bond that Muslims from lesser races are not worthy of sharing with you.

We already have a language that all Muslims should share for this purpose. And that language is Arabic. The uses of Arabic is not limited to using it to read the Quran and recite during Salat. Use it to talk to each other. You can use it to talk to Bangladeshis, Punjabis  and Patans, if they and you have bothered to learn it. So there is no reason for all of you to learn Urdu to communicate with each other.
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 26, 2013 10:02 PM »

The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) recently decided to mark Dec. 18 of each year as World Arabic Language Day.

During the opening ceremony of the first Arabic language day on Tuesday, several scientific institutions and academies called for promoting and protecting the Arabic language to improve its status in science and media, warning of the onslaught of local dialects and foreign languages on Arabic.

I would like to see non-Anglo-Saxon languages such as Arabic, Urdu and Persian to be protected and appreciated, it should be done on the merits of the language, its usefulness, cultural value and the beauty it entails.
To say that; ” Arabic is our language as well as the language of the Holy Qur’an and Islam, which unites us. It is the language of culture and of the prosperous Arab-Islamic intellectual and literary heritage. It is the language of the civilizational identity of both Muslim and Christian Arabs, and the language of all Muslims, who use Arabic to read their Qur’an and understand its meanings,” the statement read”, is far from reality and facts.
Does not Abdul-Aziz Othman Altwaijri know that the Quranic Arabic is not the same as the Arabic language being used in various dialects and mixes in daily life from Morocco to Iraq. Besides, Arabic is not the language of Islam.There are 60 Muslim countries and many of these do not speak Arabic. Arabs are only 20% of the Muslim population so it is extremely arrogant to claim that it is the language of all Muslims. Most Muslims even those who read Quran in Arabic do not read it properly it, much less understand it.
IA

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