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moe19x
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« on: May 24, 2008 11:02 PM »


Since its against the Canadian laws "Under the Criminal Code, polygamy was deemed a crime in 1892. Those who enter into reside in, or officiate a polygamous union can be charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison." Why wont the government take action against those that are breaking it and Imams like Aly Hindy???  Huh?

GTA's secret world of polygamy
 TheStar.com - GTA - GTA's secret world of polygamy

May 24, 2008
Noor Javed
Staff Reporter

There were no pleasantries, there was no small talk. Safa Rigby had expected to hear her husband's voice when the phone rang one morning. Instead, the caller didn't even bother to say hello.

"You think you know your husband. You don't know him at all," said the man, a friend of her husband's. "His car is parked outside my house right now. He is with my ex-wife. They just got married last week," the man said.

It took a minute for the news to sink in. Then she called her husband of 14 years, demanding to know if what she had just been told was true – that while she spent a year in Egypt raising their four children in a more Islamic environment, he had used it as an opportunity to marry not just one, but two other women in Toronto.

"Yes, I'm married," he said, quashing all her dreams of their future together.

He told her he was married in a small ceremony 20 days earlier, officiated by Aly Hindy, a well-known Toronto imam, at his Scarborough mosque.

"I cried for six days straight. Lost my appetite, ignored the kids, even had to start taking antidepressants," said Rigby, 35. "What I couldn't understand was how such a thing could happen in Toronto, my hometown, where polygamy is supposed to be illegal."

It was easy. He simply found an imam willing to break a Canadian law, in exchange for upholding an Islamic one.

"Polygamy is happening in Toronto; it's not common, but it's happening," said Hindy, imam at Salahuddin Islamic Centre.

Hindy, hardly a stranger to controversy, is well known for his friendship with the family of Omar Khadr, the young Canadian detainee at Guantanamo Bay, and his outspoken views on the implementation of Islamic law. In the past five years, Hindy said he has officiated or "blessed" more than 30 polygamous marriages; the most recent was two months ago. Even some imams in the GTA have second wives, he added.

"This is in our religion and nobody can force us to do anything against our religion," he said. "If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that."

Those who condone the practice rarely let their views be known, and those who practise it themselves tend to do so in secret, making it difficult to record how many such marriages have taken place in the GTA. Equally hard to determine is how many polygamous families have immigrated to the country, despite a 2005 report commissioned by the federal Status of Women that tried to find out the extent of polygamy and its implications.

But conducting such unions in clear violation of Canadian law is wrong, according to Syed Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, who speaks frequently on polygamy issues.

"Muslims should not enter into polygamy while they are living in Canada, because the local Canadian law prevails. It overrules the Islamic law if there is a conflict between the two," he said.

Under the Criminal Code, polygamy was deemed a crime in 1892. Those who enter into reside in, or officiate a polygamous union can be charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison.

But the last time polygamy was prosecuted in Canada was more than 60 years ago. Fundamentalist Mormons in Bountiful, in southeastern British Columbia, have managed to get away with openly practising polygamy, believed to be an integral and necessary part of their faith, since the 1940s with little legal recourse.

A raid six weeks ago on a Texas polygamist compound, in which 440 children were seized by child-protection officials, also drew attention to the practice of polygamy and a sect's religious beliefs. An appeals court, however, ruled this week that the children, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, be released.

Islamic laws on polygamy, while based on religious texts, differ from the Mormon example. While the Qur'an permits polygamy, it is not a requirement of the faith – and for those who wish to practise, there are strict conditions: "If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers – you may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have."

"The purpose of polygamy was to protect women," said Shahina Siddiqui, a social worker with the Islamic Social Services Association, who has worked on a number of polygamy cases. "The way it is being done here, it is not just. Second and third wives have no social support, no legal protection, no recourse if things go wrong; that in itself negates the entire premise of the Islamic law. It can't do what it was meant to do." Polygamy can work, Siddiqui stresses, if the society is set up for it, if it's open to it, and if adults consent to it.

Provincial laws do provide some protection for women in polygamous marriages. According to the Ontario Family Act, women who came to Canada with valid polygamous marriage documents can claim spousal support and welfare benefits. While the law has yet to be challenged, it is believed that those married here could also likely do the same on the basis of being vulnerable persons.

"It was about women and their needs back then, but what it is today is about a man wanting to have more women," said Rigby, who recently moved back to Canada with her children, and has just started the process of separating from her husband, a businessman. "This is their `halal' form of having an affair."

Rigby said her husband told her his reasoning for marrying the second wife was to "help" her out of a difficult financial situation. Other polygamists cite marrying divorced women as a means to provide them support or be able to have children if their wives are unable to conceive. In some cases, a wife who is ill will herself begin the process of looking for a spouse for her husband, said Hindy.

"I don't encourage people to do it, unless they have reason for it. Life ends up being very complicated. You have to jump from one house to another all the time," he said.

That's why Hindy advises men to keep the second marriage a secret as long as they can, even from the first wife. There have been instances where he has gone with the men to their homes to share the news with the first wives, in an attempt to help lessen the blow.

Hindy had advised Rigby's husband to stay quiet. When Rigby emailed Hindy, soon after discovering he had conducted the marriage, he offered little support.

"You have to stand beside him in these difficult times. You should stop causing problems to him. You will not get anything by divorce except destroying your life," she said he told her.

At that moment Rigby realized how lonely her path would be.

Since the marriages are shrouded in secrecy, women are embarrassed to speak about their situations, have few supports in place, and are often forced to deal with it alone.

"You are ashamed. You feel like you are the reason behind it. I stopped socializing, interacting. I became withdrawn. People's first impression is that if a man marries again, it's because of the failings of the first wife," Rigby said. "I spent a year trying to fix the problem, which I didn't even create."

It took Rigby almost two years to leave the marriage, as she struggled to figure out how she would manage as a single mother, now with five children, ages 1 to 14.

While Rigby eventually left, many women feel they don't have the strength to do the same. A 28-year-old Mississauga mother of two said she decided to stay in her marriage, more for her kids than for herself, even after she discovered her husband had married another woman.

During the year he had two wives, he would alternate nights between the two. "It was a horrible thought. To think of your husband with another woman," she said. But she stayed on, hopeful that he would eventually leave his new wife. "I lost trust. I lost all respect. At that point I didn't love him. I knew he was with her. He was sleeping with her. He was doing everything with her," said the woman, who asked that her name not be used. Eventually, he left his second wife.

While the Muslim factor may be a minor one in the larger debate around polygamy, which for years has focused on Bountiful, B.C., there is consensus on both sides that the practice will soon be forced to face a constitutional challenge.

Muslims have thought that if such a challenge on the basis of religion is launched, they would also benefit. But Nik Bala, a family law professor at Queen's University, believes the case for Muslims is much weaker than that of the Mormons.

"In Bountiful, the argument of freedom of religion applies, since polygamy is a requirement necessary to get to heaven. Islam permits polygamy, but doesn't require it to be a practising Muslim," said Bala. "The freedom of religion argument doesn't hold up as strongly."

But on both sides of the debate, the protection of women and children is considered paramount.

In Rigby's eyes, whether polygamy is illegal or legal is irrelevant. "If it is happening and it is here, then there should be some kind of support system set up to protect us," she said, suggesting marriage workshops or support groups for women.

For now, Rigby is writing a blog on her two years in a polygamous marriage. "No one wants to talk about it, but at a certain point, we're going to have to start having that conversation."


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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2008 12:06 PM »

It is impossible (and extremely hypocritical) to enforce a ban on polygamy while keeping adultery legal. How would they be able to prove which is which?
I respect Mormons for having the courage of their convictions and abiding by the dictates of their religion above man made laws even in the face of extreme oppression.

Muslims needs to ask themselves which is Hallal, Muslim women “marrying” Kaffir men, or polygamy?
What causes least amount of harm, Muslim men having more than one wife, or some Muslim women never getting married, or being single mothers after divorce, widowhood and converting to Islam when the Husband during the days of kufr doesn’t convert?

We have to think with our text, not with the mind set of the kufr society around us. It is difficult, but we have to ignore the whispers of shaytan and think with our scripture.
And when we do we realise, some women are really shellfish and some men are too cowardly to do what they know is right.

Single women who are approaching their sell-by date should start proposing to married men, or asking their friends if they can share their husbands.
Men should start telling their wives to look for seconds, if they can afford it.
If people can clearly support a single family on £10 000 a year they can clearly support two on 20 000, three on 30 and four on 40. It is wrong to live in luxury with one wife when Allah has give excessive amounts of money, it is better to spend some of what Allah has given on others.
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2008 08:39 PM »

here are a few comments ppl wrote to the editor of the paper,





As a Muslim, polygamy has been hard to reconcile with my belief in equality. I try to explain polygamy as a practice designed to be a social-security system for women during sixth-century Arabia. Women did not usually earn income and suffered from a gender imbalance.

These marriages are not Islamic by any means. If the allegations are true, I hope Imam Aly Hindy is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Do not forget that he swore to obey Canadian law when he became a citizen. If he felt that Canadian law would deny him the reasonable expression of his faith as he defines it, he should not have made that oath.

My praise goes to Safa Rigby for having the courage tell her story. I hope others come out of the shadows.

Junaid Alam, Toronto

As a Muslim, I was appalled to read that Imam Aly Hindy was not only advocating the breaking of Canadian law, but he thinks deception (i.e. hiding a second marriage from the first wife) is okay for those practising polygamy. Thankfully, mainstream Canadian Muslim scholars have clearly discouraged this sort of behaviour in Canada.

I hope it is understood that the actions of the vast majority of Canadian Muslims show that Hindy and his type are clearly on the fringes of society and do not represent our views. Those who continue to see Hindy as a community leader need to think twice.

Naeem Siddiqi, Markham

Let's revoke the citizenship of Imam Ali Hindy. He is openly promoting the breaking of the law regarding polygamy. When he immigrated to Canada, he pledged to the Queen that he would abide by her laws. His ongoing failure to do this must have consequences.

Harry Leslie, Pickering


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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2008 10:46 PM »

salam

wow moe19x, it seems the whole point of your post is to bash Aly Hindy.  you wrote the
 comments first in red, then you chose the reader's responses from the star that also call
 for charging Aly Hindy. 

Do you know this man?  Or is this just a favour you are doing to someone who has a
 not-so-hidden agenda against Aly Hindy?  I happen to  think the latter and with good reason.
  My advice is to try to be fair, objective and not be duped into something you don't know
 the ins and outs of, even if another seemingly pious imam convinces you otherwise.

It seems to me that it would be more rational to discuss the actual husband who took more
 than one wife rather than to blame the imam who officiated what is basically a legal
 islamic marriage.

Quote
Since its against the Canadian laws "Under the Criminal Code, polygamy was deemed
 a crime in 1892. Those who enter into reside in, or officiate a polygamous union can be
 charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison." Why wont the
 government take action against those that are breaking it and Imams like Aly Hindy???


As a Muslim, polygamy has been hard to reconcile with my belief in equality. I try to
 explain polygamy as a practice designed to be a social-security system for women during
 sixth-century Arabia. Women did not usually earn income and suffered from a gender imbalance.

These marriages are not Islamic by any means. If the allegations are true, I hope Imam
 Aly Hindy is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Do not forget that he swore to
 obey Canadian law when he became a citizen. If he felt that Canadian law would deny him the
 reasonable expression of his faith as he defines it, he should not have made that oath.

My praise goes to Safa Rigby for having the courage tell her story. I hope others come
 out of the shadows.

Junaid Alam, Toronto

As a Muslim, I was appalled to read that Imam Aly Hindy was not only advocating the
 breaking of Canadian law, but he thinks deception (i.e. hiding a second marriage from the
 first wife) is okay for those practising polygamy. Thankfully, mainstream Canadian Muslim
 scholars have clearly discouraged this sort of behaviour in Canada.

I hope it is understood that the actions of the vast majority of Canadian Muslims show
 that Hindy and his type are clearly on the fringes of society and do not represent our
 views. Those who continue to see Hindy as a community leader need to think twice.

Naeem Siddiqi, Markham

Let's revoke the citizenship of Imam Ali Hindy. He is openly promoting the breaking of
 the law regarding polygamy. When he immigrated to Canada, he pledged to the Queen that he
 would abide by her laws. His ongoing failure to do this must have consequences.

Harry Leslie, Pickering

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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2008 11:54 PM »

LOL you got this wrong, i dont know this man, i dont live in his community i live outside of Toronto, nor do i know anyone who knows him personaly. My opinions in red were my opinions only, based on reading this article in the toronto Star and based on previous articles in the toronto sun, ( they did not name Aly Hindy in that particular article)
 
The responses from the Toronto star were just a few,  none of the responses printed in the Toronto Star supported Aly Hindy.

There are 2 parties involved in this matter not only the husband but the imam, the man who oficiated the marrige breaking Canadas laws that he took an oath to abid by.

Let's revoke the citizenship of Imam Ali Hindy. He is openly promoting the breaking of
 the law regarding polygamy. When he immigrated to Canada, he pledged to the Queen that he
 would abide by her laws. His ongoing failure to do this must have consequences.

Harry Leslie, Pickering
cheese
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008 11:44 AM »

I think the rule about bashing Scholars in the constitution only applies to deviant scholars who make Harram hallal and hallal Harram. Bashing Sunni scholars appears to be completely acceptable.

What you wrote on the top and what you wrote in the next post are justified using semantics which is a worthless justification. Whatever way you look at it, it’s still a bash.
When a white Canadian breaks the law, has anyone ever said the white faced Christian should be kicked out for not obeying the Queen as a god?
Are married Canadians who commit adultery kicked out, are there any demands to kick them out?
Adultery isn’t illegal in Canada.
We recognise Muslim marriage, Canadian law doesn’t. So as far as Canadian law is concerned the people commit adultery with their second wives. This is not a crime in Canadian law.
It is only a crime in the minds of depraved individuals with serious inferiority complexes in the case of Muslims, and serious superiority complexes in the case of Kaffir.
The Law only covers people who legally register second marriages.
If the Imam broke the law he would have been arrested straight away, knowing how much the enemies of Allah who stole Canada from the Natives hate Islam. But some Muslims go a step further than the enemies of Allah to try and appease them and demand Muslims be arrested when they have broken no law.
They find the sunnah embarrassing, so demand every person that speaks to Sunnah be arrested.
We have many such people in the UK.
That’s why UK prisons are so full of Ulima that the evil Kaffir rulers are concerned that each and every criminal in Britain’s maximum security prisons will convert to Islam, so they are planning to build Muslim only prisons for Ulima to stop them converting everyone to Islam.
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008 05:43 PM »

Obeying the law of the land... what about the West?
Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2409&CATE=144

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« Reply #7 on: Jun 01, 2008 03:06 PM »

Here is another article from the Toronto Star a week later'Polygamy is a crime, non?'
 TheStar.com - News - 'Polygamy is a crime, non?'
 
 
ANDREW WALLACE/TORONTO STAR
Fouad Boutaya wants to shed light on what one MPP calls a 'loophole' in Canada's polygamy laws. UNDER THE LAW

Here's what the Criminal Code says about polygamy:

(1) Everyone who:

(a) practises or enters into or in any manner agrees or consents to practise or enter into
(i) any form of polygamy, or
(ii) any kind of conjugal union with more than one person at the same time, whether or not it is by law recognized as a binding form of marriage, or

(b) celebrates, assists or is a party to a rite, ceremony, contract or consent that purports to sanction a relationship mentioned in subparagraph (a)(i) or (ii),

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
Fouad Boutaya found out the law isn't quite as clear-cut as he thought when his wife married his friend and police said they could do nothing

June 01, 2008
Noor Javed
Staff Reporter

 

There was little Fouad Boutaya could do to console his broken heart when his wife eloped with his best friend – a man still legally married to another woman.

But he thought in Canada, where polygamy is illegal, he would be able to find support and solace in the legal system.

Instead, months after he complained to police, contacted local government officials, and found documents proving that an illegal marriage had taken place, he was told simply there was nothing any official could do since the marriage had never been legally registered.

The story of the polygamous marriage was told in the Star a week ago from the perspective of Safa Rigby, the mother of five still legally married to Hossny Ismail when he married Boutaya's wife. It was Boutaya who phoned Rigby in Egypt to break the news of what her husband had done.

"Polygamy is a crime here, non?" said Boutaya, 44, who switched from French to English throughout the conversation.

"They keep saying it's not a problem. But while they say that, there are more children in a broken family – without a father, without a mother," said Boutaya, who moved from Morocco to Hamilton with his wife, 36, and two children in 2003.

The laws that criminalize polygamy date back more than 100 years in Canada, but in modern times, no one has faced prosecution for the practice. According to the Criminal Code, those who enter into a polygamous marriage, polygamous conjugal union, or officiate at a polygamous union can be charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison. Even if the marriage is not registered, it is still considered a crime according to the law.

"There is a legal loophole and we need to close it," said Andrea Horwath, New Democrat MPP for Hamilton East, who has been trying to get the government to address the polygamy issue for years. Although the law clearly stipulates that polygamy is illegal, without registered marriage licences and documents proving that a marriage took place, the government is unable to take any serious action against the officiant or the polygamist. Religious marriage documents – without the backing of an actual marriage certificate issued by the province – hold little weight in the eyes of the law. Government and Consumer Affairs Minister Ted McMeekin used the same argument last week at Queen's Park when urged by opposition MPPs to investigate religious clergy misusing their licence.

"Marriage is a contract. A contract requires a licence, and once a marriage occurs, it has to be registered. There are no multiple marriages being registered in the province of Ontario," he told the Legislature.

Turning a blind eye to polygamy is not new. For the past 60 years, fundamentalist Mormons in Bountiful in southeastern British Columbia have openly practised polygamy as an integral and necessary part of their faith, with little legal recourse.

When Boutaya read Rigby's story in the Star a week ago, he realized he was reading the story of his own life. Ismail hadn't sought a widow, a divorcee, or a woman in need of financial or emotional support when he married Boutaya's wife –conditions that would justify polygamous unions under Islam. Instead, he married a woman who wasn't even legally divorced yet. Just a month earlier, Boutaya and his wife had filed for separation in family court.

"This is not Islamic. Nothing about this marriage was Islamic," said Boutaya, who now has sole custody of his two children. "They used Islam to hide their affair."

While Islam sanctions polygamy, it imparts specific conditions and rules under which polygamy can and should be practised. The Qur'an itself states the difficulty of choosing such a lifestyle: "You have it not in your power to do justice between the wives, even though you may wish it."

Boutaya said he is shocked a religious man like Aly Hindy, the imam at Salahuddin Islamic Centre in Scarborough, would support such a marriage.

"What he has done has destroyed two families," said Boutaya. "Why does he still have the licence to marry people?"

Officials with the registrar general's office investigated Hindy last year, when Boutaya brought this case to their attention, but were unable to prove the allegations.

"The minister, once hearing this, did order a review of the situation," said Greg Dennis, a ministry spokesperson. "We looked at records, we talked to people involved and we made our conclusions from there. We found and heard nothing to indicate that there had been any polygamous marriages performed."

The religious document is not enough, Dennis said. "A religious ceremony is not law."

More than two years after his wife left him, Boutaya remembers every detail of the moment of revelation he has relived in his mind many times since. The former civil servant came home early from a job-hunting trip to Ottawa to surprise his wife and two children, picking up a cake on his way. When he arrived, he found Ismail sitting at the dinner table, eating comfortably, as if he was in his own home.

"I asked him, `What are you doing here, my friend? You should not be here alone with my wife when I am not here,'" said Boutaya.

"What's the problem?" Boutaya said Ismail replied. "She is my wife."

In shock, Boutaya stormed out with his two children – a daughter, 7, and son, 11 – and drove to the local police station in Hamilton.

"It was my first reaction. I just needed someone to listen to me and protect me," said Boutaya. Instead, he was told that he didn't have much of a case.

So Boutaya sought proof. He spent the next month talking to imams while taking care of his children and trying to adjust to life at the Good Shepherd Centre, a local shelter, where they lived for four months. His wife continued to live in their home.

"It's been so hard for my kids. They were in shock for weeks afterwards," said Boutaya, who now lives in subsidized housing.

For years, officials have said part of the difficulty in prosecuting polygamy has been that it is a victimless crime. But the story of Boutaya and Rigby, and the seven children caught in between, suggests there can be a great deal of emotional harm.

"For the women and men, it is devastating and life changing," said MPP Horwath, who says she has spoken to a number of women and men affected by polygamy. Horwath says she has been urging the government to liaise with the Muslim community, and to put legislation in place that protects the rights of all people.

Boutaya insists on speaking out publicly about what he says is the abuse of polygamy, even though he has had little support from within the Muslim community and his own situation is irretrievable. He's now in the middle of getting a divorce.

"If I can't save my family," he said. "Maybe I can save the situation of someone in the future."

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« Reply #8 on: Jun 02, 2008 07:09 AM »

salam,

I really don't understand that whole story about Boutaya and his wife... How did she go marry someone else when she was still his "wife". That's polyandry? and not allowed in Islam!! Why is this article supposedly about polygamy? It seems to be about one guy's complaints about his marriage. His wife divorced him and went to marry someone else of her own free will. Why's he so upset about it and wants to prosecute the Imam for conducting the marriage??? Uh huh sounds like sour grapes to me.


Anyways, the most important thing mentioned is this:

The laws that criminalize polygamy date back more than 100 years in Canada, but in modern times, no one has faced prosecution for the practice. According to the Criminal Code, those who enter into a polygamous marriage, polygamous conjugal union, or officiate at a polygamous union can be charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison. Even if the marriage is not registered, it is still considered a crime according to the law.

All imams should take the hint.

I think Muslims at this point should join forces with the Mormons in this issue.
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 02, 2008 03:24 PM »

See...

The difference between our faith and the mormon faith on this issue...

is that for us polygamy is an OPTION only to be used when a series of conditions are met..
for them, it's a cornerstone of their faith..

Wasalaam.
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 04, 2008 01:19 AM »

Here is a letter to the editor that i truly agree to,
They need to either fight and have the law changed or repect and follow the law and those who dont should face the consequences


So many lives destroyed
 TheStar.com - comment - So many lives destroyed
 
June 03, 2008
Re:`Polygamy is a crime, non?'

June 1

The stories of Safa Rigby and Fouad Boutaya demonstrate their anguish and lack of legal protection. Both are victims of polygamy. Neither wanted their spouses to become involved in polygamous relationships and both learned after the fact. In total, there are seven children involved in this instance of irresponsible multi-spousal grazing.

How can Canadian officials call polygamy a victimless crime? Rigby and Boutaya have lost their emotional and financial security because an imam, Aly Hindy, has performed a heartless sham ceremony to the detriment of at least two families. Surely Canada can do better than this. It is not good enough to write reams of laws; those laws must be applied. In both cases, a form of emotional fraud is evident, and Hindy is the main perpetrator who facilitates and promotes it. He is testing Canada's legal spine.

Having lost their homes, Boutaya and his two children were forced to reside at a local shelter, while Rigby must raise five children alone. Clearly they will become dependent on social programs to some degree, so taxpayers are also side-swiped by this fraud.

This crime has lots of victims, direct and indirect.

Vic Hotte, Kettleby, Ont.


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« Reply #11 on: Jun 04, 2008 03:25 PM »

salam

Okaaay so I kinda stopped reading posts when I hit cheese 'single women passing their sell by date....' with men like that the single life is the one to aim for really.

Someone explain to me in easy words, how exactly is it Islamic to keep a marriage secret, that is nto allowed as far as my limited understanding goes.

Also wonder, exactly how many men sustain these plural marriages or end up leaving second wives and taking other women as second wives and then leaving them etc.... kind of like a 'halal affair' in their eyes??

I think the imam who pointed out that it is islamic to follow the laws of the land one resides in has a point.... now someone is going to say what if the law was <insert something completely haram> and thats a daft argument in terms of this law, it is not a law to have four wives, one may if one can deal with them fairly.

Personally, I'm not about to touch any man unless he comes complete with halo, wings and references from his creator!!!

Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 04, 2008 04:03 PM »

salam

So just read the second article, theres deffo more here than meets the eye.

Why did the almost ex husband move out of the marital home with his children, and not the wife and her new husband?

Also if the man was not actually divorced form his wife, and if she had not observed the iddat period would the marriage contract be valid islamically???


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 04, 2008 06:12 PM »

salam

Fozia, my hunch is that we are only being "fed" half-truths here. 

I actually know Aly  Hindy.  He does and says controversial things that press many people's buttons, but he would not marry a woman to another man if she is already married or her iddat was not observed.

I would hazard a guess that F. Boutaya actually divorced his wife and split on her, showing up after the iddat finished, but the two never filed for a legal divorce in Canadian courts.  The process is usually expensive and lengthy taking upto 1 yr.   But that's not an excuse.

As to the reason why the Boutaya guy left the house with the kids instead of the wife can only be explained that he never owned it or it was just a rental apartment and the ex wife has been picking up the tap since he disappeared on her. 

I do agree however that the marriage should not have been performed, given the messy situation.  The legal divorce should have been issued first. 

This is an issue where a legal fiqh opinion is needed.  That is can a woman living in a non-muslim land who was divorced islamically remarry before her legal divorce is issued?

Anyone who knows scholars in real life may pose this question to them. 

 walaikumsalaam
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 04, 2008 10:52 PM »

um aboodi,
“This is an issue where a legal fiqh opinion is needed.”
Hasn’t the legal Fiqh opinion been given by an Alim you know?
Aly  Hindy!

By marrying her, he has given his legal fiqh opinion on this issue, but that clearly his legal Fiqh opinion isn’t good enough.
So do you require an opinion that agrees with “I do agree however that the marriage should not have been performed”?

The issue is clear, and the solution isn’t treating the law of the land as a god above Allah.
The issue is women wanting divorce, and husbands refusing to give it.
If Islamic courts aren’t recognised by the state, than a lady might go to one sheikh but the husband might refuse to recognise him or his authority.
So she might consider herself divorced, but he doesn’t.
If Muslims follow the law of the kufr land above Allah and she went to a kufr court, obtained a kufr divorce, and got married again. She would actually be committing Zina and deserves to be stoned to death because she is still married to her original Husband.
The Solution is for Canada to recognise Shariya law on personal matters.
This is so clear.
Many kaffar majority countries recognise Islamic law on personal matters, because anything else leads to the mess we see around us.
And here in the UK even the head of the Church of England has called for Shriya law on personal matters to be recognised in the UK.

Posters on this tread need to seriously think about what they have written?
Ask yourself what are you attacking? Have any of you stepped over the line and attacked Polygamy?
Remember you might not like it, but Allah has made it Hallal. Our Prophet and his message were sent to all of mankind, not just Arabs of a bygone age.
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 05, 2008 08:43 AM »

salam

Being a brit, and having a vague idea of whats going on outside of my immediate sphere, I can say quite categorically that the Queen has not expressed any oinion whatsoever on Shariah law.... She is the head of the church of england btw in case anyone was wondering!!!!


Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 05, 2008 09:38 AM »

Dr Rowan is the top of the pyramid in the Church of England. The Saying the Queen is the head of the Church of England would be like saying the Queen rules Britain and not Gordon Brown(PM) or his Zionist masters.

But whoever rules the UK, the deviancy of assuming Allah’s laws are not valid outside a particular time or space isn’t restricted to Canada or the UK. It is everywhere and it was the excuse used to abolish the Khilafah. It is of vital importance that this deviancy is removed as it is the excuse used in the Muslim world for ruling with other than what Allah has revealed and it is the excuse used everywhere to disobey Allah and obey other then what Allah revealed as a god above.

Whether you like it or not, there is no disagreement on this issue.

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« Reply #17 on: Jun 05, 2008 10:36 AM »

salam

Rowan said islamic law and jewish law should be applicable in matters such as divorce. Which I utterly agree with, no idea of the jewish stance on it obviously. However even if one has the piece of paper saying one is married legally in the uk or divorced it's not something one views as acceptable unless it's done religously too ime from the islamic point of view.

Rowan began and ended with marital laws, he wasnt endorsing anything over and above that.

The Queen is head of the C of E, if it werent for the royals there would be no such thing. She does have say in parliament, without her royal assent laws wouldnt go thro, altho I'd bet they'd only let her do that once before getting rid of the monarchy altogether. The monarchy makes up part of parliament...wooo never thought my politics A Level would ever come in useful at all....




Wassalaam

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 06, 2008 06:14 PM »

Assalamu'alaikum,

The case study in the latest report seems to be scandalous with lots of unanswered questions.

But beyond this case, I think Noor Javed is trying to potray "the other side of the coin" - where a man (instead of a woman) is the victim. Perhaps, it'll draw some parallel on how rights, respect, trust etc are tramped and thrashed.
Perhaps, it'll bring some empathy when such was done to a man, instead of a woman. Though generally, polygeny is halal (and polyandry is haram) - Islam is about justice and dealing with those whom we are responsible for with just.

Secrecy, lying, breaking the laws of the land which one has promised to upkeep, in addition to the detrimental effect on the children and a myriad of associated ills. One wonders if it is truly an Islamic thing to do.

Allahua'lam





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« Reply #19 on: Jun 06, 2008 09:31 PM »

Quote
Single women who are approaching their sell-by date should start proposing to married men, or asking their friends if they can share their husbands

and what age might you think a woman's sell-by date would be?Huh?  Do you not remember that Khadijah ra married at a very late age in her life?Huh? you are insulting, do you think that she did wrong by marrying any man because  she was past 'her sell date'Huh?Huh? No she waited andmarried a man who had never been married before and who was a lot younger than her, so isnt she suppose to be our example?  It would do you good to actually read and reflect on the stories of our prophet and the sahaba
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 07, 2008 12:43 AM »

salam

Well if Boutaya did not want his wife to get re-married he shouldn't have divorced her, don't you think moe19x?

Maybe he should have provided for her and the kids too instead of bumming around.  He is twisting events and facts and using the kids to spite his wife.

It is time that you and others keep your noses out of peoples lives especially when you only know nothing.

And where is the evidence that boutaya's ex wife is on social assistane? It is only speculation that she is on it to garner some attention into this.

wassalam

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« Reply #21 on: Jun 08, 2008 10:06 AM »

The secrecy, lying and breaking laws are the fault of the kufr manmade Laws forbidding polygamy not the fault of the Islamic laws allowing it.

Monogamy was invented by Roman idol worshipers; it was part of their racism and immorality. The reason for it was to make sure roman women had husbands while roman men used ladies from other lands as prostitutes.
When Christianity came to the white man’s lands, Christianity was a polygamist religion. But “Saint” Augustine banned polygamy, and said he is banning it only because it is banned under Roman law, and the customs of the idol worshiping Romans and he admitted that it is clearly Hallal in the scriptures.

Why did I mention this, using the words that I did?

Firstly and most importantly, what “Saint” Augustine did is clearly a case of the Paganisation of Christianity, one step in the process where one of God’s religions was converted in to a manmade religion.
It was a clearly a case of people who claimed to be followers of a Prophet, following the examples of people who they know are disbelievers above the laws of the prophet they claimed to follow.
When Christians followed Augustine above their scriptures, that was clearly a case of a priest making Harram what Allah made Hallal, and the people accepting it. There by the people becoming worshipers of priests and Rabbis.
Now, this is one of the means the previous nations have used to destroy what Allah gave them. When Muslims forbid what Allah made Hallal, how is it any different?

Bad consequences of polygamy were mentioned, but what weren’t mentioned were the bad consequences of Monogamy. Just look around you. Are people in your society behaving any differently from the depraved Romans?
Whether people like it or not, Allah’s deen is the best, and it is always suitable for all times and places.
Why did I mention roman controlled Europe was the white man’s lands?
This concept of Monogamy only belongs to them. They want the world to think Polygamy is a Muslim thing, that we are the ones that deviated from the norm. But that is a lie, polygamy is the norm, and they are the deviants. They have imposed it on themselves then imposed it on others using invasions, colonisations and slavery. But some of the colonised still have enslaved brains, they think what ever the master says is right. This excuse about the following the laws of the white man’s lands is just another way of saying “listening to master”.
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 08, 2008 08:12 PM »

 salaam

one thing that i didn't like is how hurt the first wife was to have found out after the event. I think her husband should have told her that he wanted to take a second wife. very unfair

Nadiyya
Quote
Single women who are approaching their sell-by date should start proposing to married men, or asking their friends if they can share their husbands

and what age might you think a woman's sell-by date would be?Huh?  Do you not remember that Khadijah ra married at a very late age in her life?Huh? you are insulting, do you think that she did wrong by marrying any man because  she was past 'her sell date'Huh?Huh? No she waited andmarried a man who had never been married before and who was a lot younger than her, so isnt she suppose to be our example?  It would do you good to actually read and reflect on the stories of our prophet and the sahaba

i agree here too, since when do woman have a date when they are no longer desirable.

When the world pushes you to your knees, you are in the perfect position to pray

Be Yourself beautiful, and you will find the world full of beauty
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 08, 2008 11:28 PM »

salam

Secrecy in second marriage is not fine Islamically, the second wife here does not have any of the rights as the legal wife, she is not considered a wife in Canada.
I'm going to say it now. If you do not like the laws of the land in which you reside, what the hell are you doing living there??? Move to a country that practices shariah law...lets see just how long you last.

Sis Nadiya and Blackrose, I'm assuming cheese has his own rule of thumb as to when a woman passes her sell by date.... Roll Eyes

Islamically I know not of such a thing, please any shiekhs on this board correct me if I'm wrong!!!

I felt Sis Blackrose put forth a very pertinent argument with regards the age of Khadeeja (ra).


Wassalaam



And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. Surah 2  Verse 186
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« Reply #24 on: Jun 09, 2008 01:42 AM »

Quote
This excuse about the following the laws of the white man’s lands is just another way of saying “listening to master”.

It is not an excuse its  a fatwa, did you not read what anon posted? it is Islamic. you like to preach what you think is 'islam' but not what islam really is.  IF polygomy was 'very recommened or even encouraged which it is not (i dont c ne hadith that sais it is) all of the sahaba would have done it. Umar ra did not marry another when he married Fatima ra
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